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But it is clear from subsequent posts that we are wasting our time. As the notion that it is somehow part of normal life to physically hurt a child as a form of discipline continues to be deeply ingrained in an alarming portion of the population.
And what can you say to the suggestion that it is reprehensible to get involved because in doing so you may miss a case of real child abuse? The mind boggles.
When dealing with a mindset that equates the choice of whether to eat meat or believe in Santa Claus with the choice of whether or not to beat your children, there is no alternative to legal intervention.
We've come a long way from 50 years ago, but clearly have a long road ahead with much work remaining.
Like I said before, I enjoy lively debate. But I will not stoop to demeaning people just because they disagree. I draw the line there. They remind me of my parents, who never listened to us and were always right and demeaned us every chance they got when we had the "nerve" to disagree. They are never wrong. I can handle that. But I can't handle being "talked down" to. Peace out.
But it is clear from subsequent posts that we are wasting our time. As the notion that it is somehow part of normal life to physically hurt a child as a form of discipline continues to be deeply ingrained in an alarming portion of the population.
And what can you say to the suggestion that it is reprehensible to get involved because in doing so you may miss a case of real child abuse? The mind boggles.
When dealing with a mindset that equates the choice of whether to eat meat or believe in Santa Claus with the choice of whether or not to beat your children, there is no alternative to legal intervention.
We've come a long way from 50 years ago, but clearly have a long road ahead with much work remaining.
I didn't say BEAT. I said SPANK. There is a difference, at least to me. But whatever.
Like MomDotCom, I enjoy a lively debate also, but if your purpose here is to convince other people that they are wrong and you are right, you're going to be quite disappointed more than once. Hate to be the one to break it to you, but most people here are quite capable of using their own brains, and most people know how to make decisions for their family using what they know and their own life experiences, and what they know about their child that THEY raised, not what some stranger on the internet said. Sorry, but you just don't have that much control.
So yes, you are wasting your time. Have a great afternoon.
Like I said before, I enjoy lively debate. But I will not stoop to demeaning people just because they disagree. I draw the line there. They remind me of my parents, who never listened to us and were always right and demeaned us every chance they got when we had the "nerve" to disagree. They are never wrong. I can handle that. But I can't handle being "talked down" to. Peace out.
Neither can others on here who resorted to occasionally spanking their children. Again, you have your way of raising your children. Others here have their own way of raising theirs. In spite of those differences, I'm quite sure that the majority of our children will turn out fine, or HAVE turned out just fine. Again, you will learn quite quickly that when you show up on an internet forum and start getting uppity about how wrong they are in how they are raising children (children that THEY know very well, and come from an entirely different genetic code and likely, neighborhood/environment), you WILL find some serious opposition.
Even the best, most conscientious parent can have a childs hand slip from their grasp and the child run off into danger before the parent can reach them again.
And when accidents happen it is not always because a parent was negligent in some way. You should not add to the misery of any parent reading here who's lost a child (or had one injured) when they simply could not prevent it, a misery you cannot possibly understand unless you've had a similar fate.
Spanking a disobedient child when they have done something dangerous sends a clear message the child will be more likely to take in and remember. That spanking could in fact save their life later down the line.
In the Summer 1987 issue of _Children_ magazine,
Quote:
Dr. Dennis Embry writes:
"Since 1977 I have been heading up the only long-term project designed to counteract pedestrian accidents to preschool-aged children. (Surprisingly, getting struck by a car is about the third leading cause of death to young children in the United States.)
"Actual observation of parents and children shows that spanking, scolding, reprimanding and nagging INCREASES the rate of street entries by children. Children use going into the street as a near-perfect way to gain parents' attention. "Now there is a promising new educational intervention program, called Safe Playing.
Last edited by JustJulia; 09-12-2011 at 05:54 AM..
Reason: please quote just a few sentences, not a lengthy passage, per the TOS
If NOT spanking is such an effective discipline technique, why do people have to repeat themselves more than once, for the same behavior. How insulting.
One reason why almost everyone overestimates the effectiveness of
spanking is that we have “selective inattention.” We simply do not remember when spanking fails, as it does most of the time, because it contradicts what we want to believe. Partly this is because our culture believes spanking is “normal” and partly because many of us were spanked as children. It is difficult for us as adults to relate our adult problems to childhood spanking or to condemn our parents.
Note that parents do repeat, but that is partly because they have not learned the effective techniques of positive parenting. It is hard to change what you learned from your own parents and from the culture.
In terms of how to stop repeating, you must use what I call *get off your butt parenting.* Say something once and allow time for the child to comply. If they do not comply, get off your butt, go over to them and help them to comply with whatever it is that you need. Now, part of this is to ONLY use this for things for which compliance is necessary and changing your own attitude and expectations about what is necessary. Safety is primary, but getting on shoes may not be - the child *can* go barefoot if it's not unsafe to do so. The child can go to school *with* shoes he holds and which he puts on at the door to the school. Things like this just require a bit of a change in how we think.
My parents had much more of an effect on me using a stern voice and taking away privileges than hitting me. THey knew if they hit me I would just hate them, I wouldn't learn that I wasn't supposed to do whatever I was being spanked for.
I think this philosophy generally applies to children. Most children respond better to an explanation and logical consequences than "I'm gonna pop you!"
Personally I don't see myself ever using physical force if I have children. I babysit kids and I just tell them if they do this they can't do that. (E.g. "If you don't get off the iPad for dinner there will be no dessert.") Seems to work for me.
Exactly right Anna.... How we discipline our children is no one else's business. I just love how people gloat like crazy over how their kids turned out absolutely fabulous, just because of their parenting techniques. Hey, some kids are just wired to not stray too far over the line. Taking credit for your child's/children's choices to simply be really good kids is the same thing as living vicariously through your children, IMHO.
I don't care what kind of discipline you choose to use, when raising your children. The thing of it is, you're only around them for a certain amount of time. They eventually get out of your sight. Ultimately, it's THEIR choices that determine how they'll behave. In my opinion, it's only the child who deserves the credit for being a "good kid". As has been said, there are a whole lot of amazing kids AND adults who were spanked as children and they survived AND harbor no ill will or psychological damage from the experience. Hey, if you got "spanked" as a child and you're screwed up over it....newsflash, you were "off" to start with. That spanking had NOTHING to do with it.
Another newsflash, if you were the kind of kid who got spanked ALL of the time, and yet you still did what you were being spanked for...YOU were an out of control, hard-headed little brat who probably would be diagnosed with ODD (Oppositional Defiance Disorder), now-a-days. Also, if you got spanked all the time...what the H*LL was wrong with you that you didn't stop doing the crap that you shouldn't have been doing? .....the things that were getting you spanked? I mean, DUH! "Dr. It hurts when I bend my finger backwards". DR...... "DON'T bend your finger backwards" Incidentally, if you WERE that kind of kid, the one who constantly did what you were told not to do, or constantly did what you KNEW you weren't supposed to do....because you were defying "authority"?..... YOU are/were a control freak!!
My ex (who ended up being very abusive towards me from learned violence) was beaten regularly and it had everything to do with when her parents were in a bad mood and very little to do with what she did. Often they would make up reasons to punish her and then follow through. For example, they would accuse her of lying about something when she hadn't. If a child was spanked all the time, it doesn't necessarily mean they were out of control or a hard-headed brat. Some parents with lots of anger issues or mental illness will find any reason to beat their child. In fact, it was that history that probably made my ex so out-of-control and hard-headed. She basically learned to express her emotions with her fists. When she would get angry, her first instinct was to hit. I am very glad that I got out of that relationship but one thing it taught me is that in many cases, hitting your children is basically teaching them how to be abusive. It doesn't always mean that they will become abusive (as there are many adults who were hit as children who don't grow up to become abusive) but it certainly connects the neural pathways that allow for that potential.
Another newsflash, if you were the kind of kid who got spanked ALL of the time, and yet you still did what you were being spanked for...YOU were an out of control, hard-headed little brat who probably would be diagnosed with ODD (Oppositional Defiance Disorder), now-a-days. Also, if you got spanked all the time...what the H*LL was wrong with you that you didn't stop doing the crap that you shouldn't have been doing? .....the things that were getting you spanked? I mean, DUH! "Dr. It hurts when I bend my finger backwards". DR...... "DON'T bend your finger backwards" Incidentally, if you WERE that kind of kid, the one who constantly did what you were told not to do, or constantly did what you KNEW you weren't supposed to do....because you were defying "authority"?..... YOU are/were a control freak!!
Punishment changes the focus from their actions to the punishment itself, which interferes with the lesson of what right behavior is.
Almost everyone overestimates the effectiveness of spanking is that we have “selective inattention.” We simply do not remember when spanking fails, as it does most of the time, because it contradicts what we want to believe.
Spanking in general creates three kinds of reactions in children, imo. How much of each it creates will depend on the personality of your child.
It may produce a passive and obedient person who obeys all authority without regard to any internal moral and ethical standard.
It may produce a rebel without a cause who disobeys all authority because s/he hates to be controlled and will not give in to it. (This is the child you reference in your post).
It may produce a person who believes that anything goes as long as s/he doesn't get caught. (This is one of the reasons why people *think* spanking was effective - because this child becomes very good at not getting caught).
Some children will go back and forth between two of these positions depending upon how harsh the punishment is and/or how often the punishment is used on them.
You will find studies backing BOTH sides of the coin here. The difference in only in which we choose to follow. No matter what the form of discipline, the end results are dependent on the personality of the child. Look y'all, although I praise your efforts, this horse has been long dead. Those who have small children or none at all, may find themselves breaking their own rules, once they find their methods are not working. Unfortunately, when they do so, they're likely to find themselves curled in a ball crying their eyes out because "I was NEVER going to be THAT kind of a parent." Yeah, been there, done that. Again, some of the most well-adjusted kids and parents out there got spanked on occasion and they're just fine....but hey, thanks for caring.
Oh and nimchimpsky....I was spanked and even got a couple of beatings in my lifetime and you know what? ....I abhor violence. With the exception of having swatted most of my children on occasion, when they were small, and pummelling a drunk woman who was attacking me, over 25 years ago, I DON'T hit, or scream, or say terrible mean things to people...so it sounds like your ex had some issues. That's not always the case. Hey, there's the old saying too...that people who were sexually abused as children, grow up to be abusers themselves....well, that didn't happen either.
In fact, many people who suffer various forms of abuse as children, turn out to be extremely protective and abhor violence. That.... would be me.
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