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Old 09-10-2011, 06:08 PM
 
15,208 posts, read 16,088,461 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Punishment changes the focus from their actions to the punishment itself, which interferes with the lesson of what right behavior is.

Almost everyone overestimates the effectiveness of spanking is that we have “selective inattention.” We simply do not remember when spanking fails, as it does most of the time, because it contradicts what we want to believe.

Spanking in general creates three kinds of reactions in children, imo. How much of each it creates will depend on the personality of your child.

It may produce a passive and obedient person who obeys all authority without regard to any internal moral and ethical standard.

It may produce a rebel without a cause who disobeys all authority because s/he hates to be controlled and will not give in to it. (This is the child you reference in your post).

It may produce a person who believes that anything goes as long as s/he doesn't get caught. (This is one of the reasons why people *think* spanking was effective - because this child becomes very good at not getting caught).

Some children will go back and forth between two of these positions depending upon how harsh the punishment is and/or how often the punishment is used on them.
Can't rep you again, nana, but you nailed it.

Your last example reminds of the poster above who got beat with a broomstick when her father heard her call him a name. She later said she never did it again when he could hear her. That says it all, I think.

 
Old 09-10-2011, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,004 posts, read 9,684,822 times
Reputation: 19413
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Punishment changes the focus from their actions to the punishment itself, which interferes with the lesson of what right behavior is.

Almost everyone overestimates the effectiveness of spanking is that we have “selective inattention.” We simply do not remember when spanking fails, as it does most of the time, because it contradicts what we want to believe.

Spanking in general creates three kinds of reactions in children, imo. How much of each it creates will depend on the personality of your child.

It may produce a passive and obedient person who obeys all authority without regard to any internal moral and ethical standard.

It may produce a rebel without a cause who disobeys all authority because s/he hates to be controlled and will not give in to it. (This is the child you reference in your post).

It may produce a person who believes that anything goes as long as s/he doesn't get caught. (This is one of the reasons why people *think* spanking was effective - because this child becomes very good at not getting caught).

Some children will go back and forth between two of these positions depending upon how harsh the punishment is and/or how often the punishment is used on them.



And yet, you're still going to have all of these probably personalities...whether you spank them or not. Sorry Nana....your position falls flat...again.
 
Old 09-10-2011, 11:27 PM
 
10,452 posts, read 10,246,712 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel View Post
Oh and nimchimpsky....I was spanked and even got a couple of beatings in my lifetime and you know what? ....I abhor violence. With the exception of having swatted most of my children on occasion, when they were small, and pummelling a drunk woman who was attacking me, over 25 years ago, I DON'T hit, or scream, or say terrible mean things to people...so it sounds like your ex had some issues. That's not always the case. Hey, there's the old saying too...that people who were sexually abused as children, grow up to be abusers themselves....well, that didn't happen either.
I know and I understand. That's why I was careful to say that beating one's kid's teaches people how to be abusers even though it doesn't necessarily make them into abusers. I think beating children does increase the chance that a child will grow up having learned how to use violence as a response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky
hitting your children is basically teaching them how to be abusive. It doesn't always mean that they will become abusive (as there are many adults who were hit as children who don't grow up to become abusive) but it certainly connects the neural pathways that allow for that potential.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel
In fact, many people who suffer various forms of abuse as children, turn out to be extremely protective and abhor violence. That.... would be me.
I know. I'm one of those people too.
 
Old 09-11-2011, 12:12 AM
 
Location: State of INSANITY
183 posts, read 208,578 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel View Post
You will find studies backing BOTH sides of the coin here. The difference in only in which we choose to follow. No matter what the form of discipline, the end results are dependent on the personality of the child. Look y'all, although I praise your efforts, this horse has been long dead. Those who have small children or none at all, may find themselves breaking their own rules, once they find their methods are not working. Unfortunately, when they do so, they're likely to find themselves curled in a ball crying their eyes out because "I was NEVER going to be THAT kind of a parent." Yeah, been there, done that. Again, some of the most well-adjusted kids and parents out there got spanked on occasion and they're just fine....but hey, thanks for caring.

Oh and nimchimpsky....I was spanked and even got a couple of beatings in my lifetime and you know what? ....I abhor violence. With the exception of having swatted most of my children on occasion, when they were small, and pummelling a drunk woman who was attacking me, over 25 years ago, I DON'T hit, or scream, or say terrible mean things to people...so it sounds like your ex had some issues. That's not always the case. Hey, there's the old saying too...that people who were sexually abused as children, grow up to be abusers themselves....well, that didn't happen either.

In fact, many people who suffer various forms of abuse as children, turn out to be extremely protective and abhor violence. That.... would be me.
Got some links to the studies that support beating kids as viable discipline? I'd like to see them.
 
Old 09-11-2011, 08:56 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
7,679 posts, read 5,661,105 times
Reputation: 7541
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel View Post
[/i][/u]


And yet, you're still going to have all of these probably personalities...whether you spank them or not. Sorry Nana....your position falls flat...again.
Her position doesn't fall flat at all.

Frankly, each time I read one of your posts on this topic, I don't believe what I'm seeing. Because you, of all people, given the abuse that you have told us you suffered, should be among the last to be an advocate of hitting children. You should be among the last that would ever tell people to mind their own business when they observe physical violence against a child.

You, of all people, should understand as others of us who suffered abuse as children do, how important it is for everyone to get involved toward the goal of putting an end to it. Because if other responsible adults do nothing, helpless children will continue to suffer what you did and I did and so many others tragically did.

Your position is beyond attempts to explain.

Last edited by CrownVic95; 09-11-2011 at 09:11 AM..
 
Old 09-11-2011, 09:09 AM
 
10,452 posts, read 10,246,712 times
Reputation: 12496
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
Her position doesn't fall flat at all.

Frankly, each time a read one of your posts on this topic, I don't believe what I'm seeing. Because you, of all people, given the abuse that you have told us you suffered, should be among the last to be an advocate of hitting children. You should be among the last that would ever tell people to mind their own business when they observe physical violence against a child.

You, of all people, should understand as others of us who suffered abuse as children do, how important it is for everyone to get involved toward the goal of putting an end to it. Because if other responsible adults do nothing, helpless children will continue to suffer what you did and I did and so many others tragically did.

Your position is beyond attempts to explain.
Seconded.
 
Old 09-11-2011, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,004 posts, read 9,684,822 times
Reputation: 19413
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
Her position doesn't fall flat at all.

Frankly, each time I read one of your posts on this topic, I don't believe what I'm seeing. Because you, of all people, given the abuse that you have told us you suffered, should be among the last to be an advocate of hitting children. You should be among the last that would ever tell people to mind their own business when they observe physical violence against a child.

You, of all people, should understand as others of us who suffered abuse as children do, how important it is for everyone to get involved toward the goal of putting an end to it. Because if other responsible adults do nothing, helpless children will continue to suffer what you did and I did and so many others tragically did.

Your position is beyond attempts to explain.
Okay, well here's another attempt. A swat on the butt of a child is NOT abuse. If it were abuse, there WOULD be laws against it. I guess you can say this about me, my "neural pathways" clearly survived my "discipline" just fine. I have not spent my life picking apart my parents, but rather, learned to have compassion for them, because they were raised in a "children are seen and not heard/spare the rod spoil the child" era. They had very little coping skills and a whole lot of loser kids (my older siblings).

I have not buried myself in ridiculous self pity, because my parents didn't do everything exactly right. Instead, I look at who I've become and KNOW that it ALL has to do with how I was raised. I am who I am, in a large part, because of the way I was raised. My kids have an adoring mom who doesn't abuse them and would fight to the death for them, a mom who is (I'm not patting myself on the back.....just saying), incredibly gifted and great at many, many things, because I was raised in a family who didn't praise. You had to work your a$$ off for praise, it was not freely given. That caused me to work harder, get smarter, and be better than anyone I knew at everything I took an interest in.

Yeah....that's abuse. If you're going to make it in this damn world, you better have some tough in you. Come on people! Human beings are HARDWIRED for violence. It is in our nature! Some people's "flight" response is stronger than their "fight" response, but the adrenaline is still there. You want to know what really sickens me about some of the people stomping their feet....."Don't teach kids violence. Spanking is advocating violence. Kids who are spanked learn that violence is the answer. Look what these kids FLOCK to!!!! Violent movies, violent video games, violent sports (oh but THOSE types of violence is okay?)

Little Johnny make his position on the line this year.....YAAAAAAYYYYYY!! Go Johnny!! Knock em flat Johnny! Hit 'em HARD! Wrestling season comes up......PIN HIM! PIN HIM! DID YOU SEE THAT REF!! YOU'RE AN IDIOT!!

Yeah.....jeez, I really don't have time to continue this discussion. I don't even know why I've come back here repeatedly. Guess I need an occasional distraction from real life.
 
Old 09-11-2011, 10:06 AM
 
15,316 posts, read 16,891,203 times
Reputation: 15034
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel View Post
Okay, well here's another attempt. A swat on the butt of a child is NOT abuse. If it were abuse, there WOULD be laws against it.
The fact that something is abusive does NOT mean there are laws against it necessarily. The laws against child abuse actually did not come about until very late in human history. Not too long ago, children were considered the property of their parents, just as slavery was legal. The definition of abuse evolves.

Discusses past and current history of child abuse

Quote:
It was 1873. Mary-Ellen was 9 years old when a church worker, Mrs. Etta Wheeler, who had been asked to visit the family, found Mary-Ellen shackled to her bed, grossly malnourished, scarred and badly beaten. Mrs. Wheeler was so appalled by what she saw that she went to the authorities to report this horrifying child abuse.

The authorities turned her away.

But Mrs. Wheeler refused to take no for an answer; she petitioned the American SPCA.

Animals were protected, but children were not.

Mrs. Wheeler appealed to the ASPCA that children were members of the animal kingdom, and must therefore be protected. It was on these grounds that the ASPCA did finally intervene.

Mary-Ellen was removed from her abusive home, placed in foster care, where she thrived. She went on to marry, have 2 daughters, and Mary-Ellen lived to the age of 92.
 
Old 09-11-2011, 10:10 AM
 
15,316 posts, read 16,891,203 times
Reputation: 15034
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel View Post
Yeah....that's abuse. If you're going to make it in this damn world, you better have some tough in you. Come on people! Human beings are HARDWIRED for violence. It is in our nature! Some people's "flight" response is stronger than their "fight" response, but the adrenaline is still there. You want to know what really sickens me about some of the people stomping their feet....."Don't teach kids violence. Spanking is advocating violence. Kids who are spanked learn that violence is the answer. Look what these kids FLOCK to!!!! Violent movies, violent video games, violent sports (oh but THOSE types of violence is okay?)

Little Johnny make his position on the line this year.....YAAAAAAYYYYYY!! Go Johnny!! Knock em flat Johnny! Hit 'em HARD! Wrestling season comes up......PIN HIM! PIN HIM! DID YOU SEE THAT REF!! YOU'RE AN IDIOT!!

Yeah.....jeez, I really don't have time to continue this discussion. I don't even know why I've come back here repeatedly. Guess I need an occasional distraction from real life.
As for human nature being violent, well, that is somewhat true, but it does not mean that we have to accept it without looking at better ways of acting.

The Evolution of Human Aggression | LiveScience

Quote:
Though it may seem easier to divide the debate into two camps — those who think evolution has made humans naturally peaceful and those who think we're more naturally prone to violence, the real answer probably lies somewhere in between, said conference organizer Elizabeth Cashdan, professor of anthropology at the University of Utah.
Quote:
"There is plenty of evidence to support both claims: violence, reconciliation, and cooperation are all part of human nature," said Cashdan, who thinks these wide-ranging emotions all evolved because they benefited humans in some way in the past.
 
Old 09-11-2011, 10:42 AM
 
10,452 posts, read 10,246,712 times
Reputation: 12496
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel View Post
Okay, well here's another attempt. A swat on the butt of a child is NOT abuse.
Didn't you specifically say your parents beat you and you survived? And now you are pointing out that you only swat and don't beat? What level of hitting are you advocating for here? If there's nothing wrong with beating, as you so claim, why are you emphasizing so strongly that you "only swat" and abhor violence in general?

Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel
I was spanked and even got a couple of beatings in my lifetime and you know what? ....I abhor violence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel
With the exception of having swatted most of my children on occasion, when they were small, and pummelling a drunk woman who was attacking me, over 25 years ago, I DON'T hit, or scream, or say terrible mean things to people…
Quote:
If it were abuse, there WOULD be laws against it.
A law doesn't make something right or wrong. Iran hangs people who go against Islamic Law. The U.S. used to lynch people for being black. Does the fact those activities were/are legal make them any less violent?

Quote:
I guess you can say this about me, my "neural pathways" clearly survived my "discipline" just fine. I have not spent my life picking apart my parents, but rather, learned to have compassion for them, because they were raised in a "children are seen and not heard/spare the rod spoil the child" era. They had very little coping skills and a whole lot of loser kids (my older siblings).
I don't see where anyone else is picking apart their parents either. We're talking about whether or not hitting a child is okay.

Quote:
I have not buried myself in ridiculous self pity, because my parents didn't do everything exactly right. Instead, I look at who I've become and KNOW that it ALL has to do with how I was raised. I am who I am, in a large part, because of the way I was raised. My kids have an adoring mom who doesn't abuse them and would fight to the death for them, a mom who is (I'm not patting myself on the back.....just saying), incredibly gifted and great at many, many things, because I was raised in a family who didn't praise. You had to work your a$$ off for praise, it was not freely given. That caused me to work harder, get smarter, and be better than anyone I knew at everything I took an interest in.
I don't really see how this is related to the thread topic. Self-pity…praise…how does that have anything to do with hitting?

Quote:
Yeah....that's abuse. If you're going to make it in this damn world, you better have some tough in you. Come on people! Human beings are HARDWIRED for violence. It is in our nature! Some people's "flight" response is stronger than their "fight" response, but the adrenaline is still there. You want to know what really sickens me about some of the people stomping their feet....."Don't teach kids violence. Spanking is advocating violence. Kids who are spanked learn that violence is the answer. Look what these kids FLOCK to!!!! Violent movies, violent video games, violent sports (oh but THOSE types of violence is okay?)
Again, how is this related to the topic at all? No one here claimed that violent video games are okay while corporal punishment isn't. In fact, many of the parents I know who are against hitting their children are equally against exposing their children to violence on TV or in video games. So I don't really see how the argument that "parents allow violence in video games but not in real life" holds any water.

Quote:
Little Johnny make his position on the line this year.....YAAAAAAYYYYYY!! Go Johnny!! Knock em flat Johnny! Hit 'em HARD! Wrestling season comes up......PIN HIM! PIN HIM! DID YOU SEE THAT REF!! YOU'RE AN IDIOT!!

Yeah.....jeez, I really don't have time to continue this discussion. I don't even know why I've come back here repeatedly. Guess I need an occasional distraction from real life.
I'm wondering the same since you seem to be talking about everything but the actual thread topic.
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