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Old 05-16-2009, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Connecticut
427 posts, read 1,211,522 times
Reputation: 351

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
Even if the child HIMSELF didn't want the treatment? I think the patient should have the right to decide in this case.

He can not read and has not been told all of the facts. He does not even believe that he is still sick. If he does not have all of the information and only is being told that chemo is bad by his parentsd then he is not making an informed decision. I do think that children should have a say about what happens to their bodies, but they need to be old enough to understand what is going on, and need to know all of the facts.

There is a reason things like this are taken case-by-case. Each case is going to be completely different, and sometimes it is a judgement call. But that is why there are judges to look at a case from all sides.

What about parents who refuse treatment for a child with Pneumonia because it is against their religion and the child dies? I am all for religious rights, however when you force your beliefs on a child and those beliefs endanger the child, then yes the courts may need to get involved.
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Old 05-16-2009, 08:12 AM
 
Location: St. Louis Metro East
515 posts, read 1,363,502 times
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OK, just throwing it out there... What if the tests come back and he REALLY ISN'T sick anymore?? I don't mean from the courts, that's already been stated. I mean does that change any minds? Just wondering...

~D
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Old 05-16-2009, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Connecticut
427 posts, read 1,211,522 times
Reputation: 351
Not really, if they were taking him to doctors througout and monitoring his health with x-rays and scans while attempting the natural route I would have more faith. And one of the hospitals even offers alternative medicine. But the parents are not monitoring the cancer, they are going on blind faith.
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Old 05-16-2009, 09:36 AM
 
Location: NE Oklahoma
1,036 posts, read 2,580,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtjmom View Post
OK, just throwing it out there... What if the tests come back and he REALLY ISN'T sick anymore?? I don't mean from the courts, that's already been stated. I mean does that change any minds? Just wondering...

~D

If he REALLY Isn't sick anymore the Judge says no treatment. The Article says clearly the parents must choose an oncologist and have X-rays done in a specific length of time to SEE what the situation is. If it hasn't gotten worse.. no treatment is necessary.
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Old 05-16-2009, 09:42 AM
 
1,788 posts, read 4,150,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
Even if the child HIMSELF didn't want the treatment? I think the patient should have the right to decide in this case.
He's an illiterate, mentally challenged 13-yr-old boy who doesn't believe he's sick anymore, and his parents believe is a SHAMAN and a TRIBAL ELDER.

You really think he's in the position to make that kind of decision?
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Old 05-16-2009, 12:29 PM
 
3,842 posts, read 9,246,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtjmom View Post
OK, just throwing it out there... What if the tests come back and he REALLY ISN'T sick anymore?? I don't mean from the courts, that's already been stated. I mean does that change any minds? Just wondering...

~D
Then he doesn't need the treatment.

The judical process needs to be respected on both sides.

The judge is giving the parents a fair chance. The parents need to cooperate also.

Does it change my mind on a treatment with a 90+% success rate & DENYING it? No. Sweat bathes & dancing in circles doesn't cure cancer.
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Old 05-16-2009, 12:38 PM
 
1,986 posts, read 3,468,487 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanandpumpkin View Post
In this particular case (I went and read the article), it does seem as though the boy has a very good chance of surviving if on chemo. What if it were an 80% chance, though? Or a 70% chance? Or a 50% chance? At what point is it NOT the decision for someone other than family to make?

I'm glad that your parents are doing well. I actually meant 3-6 months of peace, then death, OR 12 months of sickness, then death. Obviously 12 months of sickness then life is preferable to both of those scenarios! Sometimes, though, chemo is just a way to prolong life by a few months or a year, and might not be worth it to some patients.
According to you, it would be more humane and desirable to live out 3 months in horrendous pain than to go through chemo and possibly get better, and if not get better, take pain meds to lessen the misery until passing. Cancer creates an extremely painful last few months in a lot of cases.

If you don't agree with treatment, you certainly wouldn't agree with pain reduction meds, now would you. I'll bet you just tell your kids to suck it up if they are hurt or sick and need Tylenol or Motrin or cold meds or anything else that might make them more comfortable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZugZub View Post
Let's see...a nearly 100% chance of being cured if my kid has the chemo? Much as it would pain me to see them sick, they'd be getting it. Oh yes. Living with some pain for a few months now is better than not living at all, because Jesus and a few roots grubbed out of the dirt of a reservation isn't going to cut it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 121804 View Post
When the parents are doing something that is putting the child's life in danger.

And the judge has said that if the cancer has not spread. Fine. No treatment. If it has...treatment b/c the treatment's chances far, far exceed what the parents are taking a chance on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZugZub View Post
He's an illiterate, mentally challenged 13-yr-old boy who doesn't believe he's sick anymore, and his parents believe is a SHAMAN and a TRIBAL ELDER.

You really think he's in the position to make that kind of decision?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 121804 View Post
Then he doesn't need the treatment.

The judical process needs to be respected on both sides.

The judge is giving the parents a fair chance. The parents need to cooperate also.

Does it change my mind on a treatment with a 90+% success rate & DENYING it? No. Sweat bathes & dancing in circles doesn't cure cancer.
It's good sense that is the glue that holds humanity together.

Actually, a point no one has brought up yet is the fact that the mother has already stated that even if it is court ordered, she will not allow her son to have the chemo.

Crying shame.
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Old 05-16-2009, 12:40 PM
 
3,842 posts, read 9,246,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanandpumpkin View Post
Okay, but when is the line crossed? 90% chance of cure with meds, 5% without, it would seem as though the child's life is definitely endangered by NOT taking the meds.

How about 80% cure rate with meds, 40% without?

Or 50% cure rate with meds, 5% without?

Or 25% with meds, 0% without?

Is there a point where the parents can say "enough is enough," and stop treatment? Or is it the doctor's/judge's choice to continue as long as the chance of survival WITH meds is greater than the chance of survival WITHOUT meds?

It's a slippery slope, IMO. Yes, children have to be protected from abusive or neglectful parents, but turning to alternative treatment options is not necessarily neglect. I'm glad the judge made the provision for not continuing treatment if the cancer was not spreading... so at least if the alternative treatments are working, they won't be forced to abandon them.
B/c as both you & I have stated...this particular case. There are some disturbing facts with this case & overall, there seems to be some brainwashing & basic neglect occuring. That does indeed endanger the child. The parents are not running on all 4 cyclinders type of thing...

One thing that needs to be respected is that cancer is not one size fits all nor are the treatments.

But for this case, it would be quite hard to state that denying treatment made sense.

I don't load my children up with Tylenol the moment they get a sniffle & feel a bit warm. But, when the temp starts to rise & they are indeed sick, I make sure they are taken care of b/c there does come a time & place when medical treatment is necessary for the well being of the child. Not comparing the flu to cancer, but trying to compare it to something all parents do encounter at one time or the other with their child. If a judge told me that I had to give my child Tylenol the moment he had a temp, I would not. But it the temp was 104 & I was still refusing it based on my belief that my child is a shaman & can speak in another tongue...probably a good thing a judge does step in....

It is a very fine line. But, again, the judicial system can work & appears to be the case here. No one is forcing this boy to continue with the treatment until it is rendered that he is indeed still very sick. If he is cured, no treatment. Case closed.

Every few years cases like this make the news b/c of the extermiity of their nature. This is not a typical case. Many parents & children do indeed forgo treatment based on the severity of the cancer, its progression, & treatment options & chances.

The odds are in favor for this boy. His parents are making sure to have them go against him. That is plain wrong.
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Old 05-16-2009, 12:44 PM
 
3,842 posts, read 9,246,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stormy night View Post
Actually, a point no one has brought up yet is the fact that the mother has already stated that even if it is court ordered, she will not allow her son to have the chemo.
Not surprising & I was going to mention in my last post that regardless, these parents will never allow treatment. CPS will have to get involved if the parents don't take him to a remote location before that can happen. The parents have obvious mental issues. I feel for the other seven children.
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Old 05-16-2009, 01:27 PM
 
2,838 posts, read 8,849,189 times
Reputation: 2857
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormy night View Post
According to you, it would be more humane and desirable to live out 3 months in horrendous pain than to go through chemo and possibly get better, and if not get better, take pain meds to lessen the misery until passing. Cancer creates an extremely painful last few months in a lot of cases.

If you don't agree with treatment, you certainly wouldn't agree with pain reduction meds, now would you. I'll bet you just tell your kids to suck it up if they are hurt or sick and need Tylenol or Motrin or cold meds or anything else that might make them more comfortable.
Where did you get any of that from my post? I did not say that I personally would deny my child chemotherapy. I said that it should be a choice. Why do you think I would withhold pain medication? There are people who decide not to use chemotherapy and radiation, and they are not denied pain medication at all. It's not an "all or nothing" type of thing.

I don't give my kids Tylenol or Motrin or cold meds, though, unless it is clearly warranted. Having a fever of 99.5 certainly does not mean that you need to be loaded up on Tylenol, and having a runny nose does not mean that you need Vicks Formula 44D. In that case, yeah, my kids "suck it up." And so do I. Your body can heal itself from the common cold or a mild virus without Tylenol or Robitussin. Severe coughing or high fever, though I do break out the symptom-maskers to make life more comfortable.
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