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You are saying this much more eloquently than I. Thank you.
No, I don't drink. But I made a decision at 13 to never do to another human being what was done to me. If I can do that at 13, why can't an adult do it?
It sickens me to watch people make excuses for addicts. Trust me when I say that they are perfectly good at coming up with excuses on their own.
The addict deserves every bit of giult and shame. They ruined lives. Why shouldn't they feel guilty? What do you expect the kids to do? The addict never got to experience the hell that they put others through. They were high at the time. But ask any family member of an addict what those years were like. They can relive every detail.
I will save my sympathy and compassion for the true victims: the families.
I think you are right -- it all comes down to excuses for the addict. I would not advise telling the children of an addict that the parent deep down loves and cares about them because all that is is teaching children that love is about hurting, neglecting, abusing. And it's just making another excuse for the addict.
If the kids decide to write the addicted parent off -- their decision is valid.
AnonChic, I think you raise some very important points. The most important, IMO, is that there is no solitary entity of "addiction" or "being an addict." Ten people could all meet criteria for Alcohol Dependence and all present very, very differently in terms of causal factors, maintaining factors, level of functioning, level of impairment, harm to family, etc. When there is so much variability in the phenomenon to begin with, I agree with you that no one method is going to be the answer for everyone. To the best of my knowledge, the addictions literature has been trying to match different treatments to different problems or different presentations for quite some time in order to be able to predict the treatment that will be most likely to work for an individual. I am hopeful that there are answers out there and as technology and treatment knowledge continue to increase, that prevention and treatment success rates will also increase.
The thing is every person is different. One's responses to major life stresses, work stress, illness, early childhood trauma, etc, etc, etc. is going to differ from person to person based on their genetics, anatomy, family structure and support, age, demographics, geography, and a multitude of other factors. This notion that "I did xyz, why can't the next person" is ridiculous.
If you don't want to drink...but you can't stop...
and you are able to get past the withdrawal..
and you still don't want to drink..
then you don't need willpower to refrain from drinking. You simply say "I don't -want- any, thank you." And in that case, it would be true.
And since you don't want any, and you aren't consuming any, you're not "experiencing" the addiction. To that end, it's cured. To that end, you're not "needing another drink" because you have gotten to the point where you don't feel any particular need or interest in drinking anyway.
The 12-step cliche of "recovering" alcoholics is only partly true. Some people *can* be "recovered" alcoholics. If they start drinking again, they'll fall back into the addiction, sure. But as long as they are -able- to say, with honesty to themselves, "I don't -want- another drink" - then they ARE "cured".
They might become addicted again. Just like people who catch a cold, will be cured of the cold, and catch another one next year. It's not a life sentence. Or rather - it isn't -necessarily- a life sentence. For some people it is. But not for everyone. However, it most certainly is, for people who are convinced that it is.
You are right that there are different kinds of addicts and probably treatment plans need to account for the differences.
I knew one man whose wife insisted he was an alcoholic but never a drunk. I saw him at many occasions where alcohol was served and never once was he drunk, never slurred his words, never once was out of control.
She said that ever since she was married and they were married over 50 years, the first thing he would do in the morning before getting out of bed was take a swig of whisky, that was also the last thing he would do before falling asleep. Throughout the day he would take a swig of whisky -- always maintaining a low level of alcohol in his system. She insisted he had to have this alcohol but he never actually got drunk. I suppose since he needed his alcohol but it caused him no problem, no job loss, he didn't really need to give it up.
So I will take her word for it -- he was an alcoholic but never was drunk. I know another alcoholic who definitely is an alcoholic who now does limit himself to one beer an hour. He's not cured, not recovered. To him sobriety is not an option but drinking has messed up his life so much that the only way he can keep on drinking is to control his drinking, sip one beer over an hour, and on weekends that means drinking a beer from the moment he gets up to whenever he passes out or falls to sleep -- but he passes out. He stays up as long as he can to enjoy more alcohol, no 9pm bedtime for him unless he passes out by then. The beer is what puts him to sleep. Alcohol is that all-important to him that he will actually use his willpower to control it -- he even gave up the hard stuff and switched to beer just so he could go on drinking.
Another alcoholic I know will pace herself and find a normal drinker at a social event and drink at the same rate and limit herself to the one or two drinks that the one she's pacing herself with has. She's now at a point where she falls off the wagon every few months but manages to get back on. I wouldn't say she's recovered either, or really trying to be, she just now manages to stay out of the hospital and jail -- maybe limiting her alcohol is the only way she can go on drinking -- it's that important to go on drinking.
I think you are right -- it all comes down to excuses for the addict. I would not advise telling the children of an addict that the parent deep down loves and cares about them because all that is is teaching children that love is about hurting, neglecting, abusing. And it's just making another excuse for the addict.
If the kids decide to write the addicted parent off -- their decision is valid.
I completely agree that if the child decides to write the parent off that is a valid, and in some cases very wise, decision.
There is a middle ground between making excuses for and blaming (neither of which is effective, IMO). There is a difference between understanding something and condoning it. There is a difference between telling a child that an addicted parent's behavior is not a reflection of love or lack thereof for the child and telling the child that how the addicted parent is behaving is ok or should be tolerated (which it is not and should not be). Personally, I would never communicate to a child (even implicitly) that if their parent loved them enough they would quit - IMO, that is a terrible burden to place on a child or for a child to assume upon him/herself. What I would communicate is that I don't know why the parent cannot stop, but that the child is not the reason.
Last edited by eastwesteastagain; 07-22-2012 at 12:37 PM..
If you don't want to drink...but you can't stop...
and you are able to get past the withdrawal..
and you still don't want to drink..
then you don't need willpower to refrain from drinking. You simply say "I don't -want- any, thank you." And in that case, it would be true.
And since you don't want any, and you aren't consuming any, you're not "experiencing" the addiction. To that end, it's cured. To that end, you're not "needing another drink" because you have gotten to the point where you don't feel any particular need or interest in drinking anyway.
The 12-step cliche of "recovering" alcoholics is only partly true. Some people *can* be "recovered" alcoholics. If they start drinking again, they'll fall back into the addiction, sure. But as long as they are -able- to say, with honesty to themselves, "I don't -want- another drink" - then they ARE "cured".
They might become addicted again. Just like people who catch a cold, will be cured of the cold, and catch another one next year. It's not a life sentence. Or rather - it isn't -necessarily- a life sentence. For some people it is. But not for everyone. However, it most certainly is, for people who are convinced that it is.
But it is. You can pretty much guarantee, AFAIK, that if someone has already gone through the physiological changes inherent with addiction (addiction - not heavy drinking or even problem drinking - like to the point where their children are removed from the home), that if they do drink, or whatever their issues are, that they will become addicted again, and very very quickly.
Yes you can abstain after going through the addiction phase and not be actively addicted. But your ability to consume whatever substance you were addicted to without becoming physically addicted again in short order is pretty much over.
For those who have overcome the obsession with it, have a good healthy fear of the outcome should they resume, and are fully committed to never doing it again - then it's not a problem, you are totally correct. Then yes, I could agree that you are effectively cured. Still not a medical cure though.
And the problem is, there are millions of people who never ever get past the withdrawal stage. Perhaps they would, if they lived long enough. Unfortunately, unlike catching a reoccurring cold, there is great possibility they'll die before they get the chance. And there is even greater possibility that they'll leave a path of destruction and despair in their wake.
That's why IMO, there should be more regard (hopefully there is) to finding a medical way to restore normal brain function in addicts, and we shouldn't just rely on a 12 step model, or willpower, or whatever other method we have that currently is ineffective for most people and is a hugely damaging process for their families who end up going through it too.
I completely agree that if the child decides to write the parent off that is a valid, and in some cases very wise, decision.
There is a middle ground between making excuses for and blaming (neither of which is effective, IMO). There is a difference between understanding something and condoning it. There is a difference between telling a child that an addicted parent's behavior is not a reflection of love or lack thereof for the child and telling the child that how the addicted parent is behaving is ok or should be tolerated (which it is not and should not be). Personally, I would never communicate to a child that if their parent loved them enough they would quit - IMO, that is a terrible burden to place on a child or for a child to assume upon him/herself. What I would communicate is that I don't know why the parent cannot stop, but that the child is not the reason.
Just because they're dead doesn't mean they couldn't. They just wouldn't . . .
People in rehab and recovery groups have stopped for the time being, so they CAN stop. If they actually couldn't stop, there would be no such thing as an intervention, rehab, or recovery.
To me, this is as preposterous as saying, "Bill Gates invented Windows, so I CAN invent the next big operating system." It's just so silly and completely ignores everything we know about addiction and brain chemisty.
If you don't want to drink...but you can't stop...
and you are able to get past the withdrawal..
and you still don't want to drink..
then you don't need willpower to refrain from drinking. You simply say "I don't -want- any, thank you." And in that case, it would be true.
And since you don't want any, and you aren't consuming any, you're not "experiencing" the addiction. To that end, it's cured. To that end, you're not "needing another drink" because you have gotten to the point where you don't feel any particular need or interest in drinking anyway.
The 12-step cliche of "recovering" alcoholics is only partly true. Some people *can* be "recovered" alcoholics. If they start drinking again, they'll fall back into the addiction, sure. But as long as they are -able- to say, with honesty to themselves, "I don't -want- another drink" - then they ARE "cured".
They might become addicted again. Just like people who catch a cold, will be cured of the cold, and catch another one next year. It's not a life sentence. Or rather - it isn't -necessarily- a life sentence. For some people it is. But not for everyone. However, it most certainly is, for people who are convinced that it is.
As someone else who quit smoking, I found it very comforting and freeing to say,
"YES, I do WANT that cigarette but I am strong enough NOT to."
Pretending you don't want it complicates the issue IMO.
I think you are right -- it all comes down to excuses for the addict. I would not advise telling the children of an addict that the parent deep down loves and cares about them because all that is is teaching children that love is about hurting, neglecting, abusing. And it's just making another excuse for the addict.
If the kids decide to write the addicted parent off -- their decision is valid.
Not true for me or my siblings. We know my father loved us but his addiction clouded his decision making, among other things. I'm not making an excuse for him. I'm stating a cold, if complex, truth. Even abusers love their victims (spousal/child) but that doesn't mean their actions are not wrong. It simply means that people are complex beings and ignoring that is very unwise.
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