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But it is. You can pretty much guarantee, AFAIK, that if someone has already gone through the physiological changes inherent with addiction (addiction - not heavy drinking or even problem drinking - like to the point where their children are removed from the home), that if they do drink, or whatever their issues are, that they will become addicted again, and very very quickly.
Yes you can abstain after going through the addiction phase and not be actively addicted. But your ability to consume whatever substance you were addicted to without becoming physically addicted again in short order is pretty much over.
For those who have overcome the obsession with it, have a good healthy fear of the outcome should they resume, and are fully committed to never doing it again - then it's not a problem, you are totally correct. Then yes, I could agree that you are effectively cured. Still not a medical cure though.
And the problem is, there are millions of people who never ever get past the withdrawal stage. Perhaps they would, if they lived long enough. Unfortunately, unlike catching a reoccurring cold, there is great possibility they'll die before they get the chance. And there is even greater possibility that they'll leave a path of destruction and despair in their wake.
That's why IMO, there should be more regard (hopefully there is) to finding a medical way to restore normal brain function in addicts, and we shouldn't just rely on a 12 step model, or willpower, or whatever other method we have that currently is ineffective for most people and is a hugely damaging process for their families who end up going through it too.
The highlighted is faulty reasoning, in my opinion. I believe people drink for unconscious reasons - often to attempt to medicate unbearable emotional pain and trauma - so "finding a way to restore normal brain function" is a tad too simplistic - smacks of the "pill quick fix" that Americans are so sold on for any problem or malady - and ironically the "pill quick fix" is often what leads to addiction in the first place.
It's complete unawareness as to what can bring happiness and the effects of one's actions on others - pure selfish attempt at pain relief - and when it is discovered that it doesn't work - no increased awareness - just kind of a dumb and irresponsible way to live, in the end. No excuses - the people aren't retarded, but they don't learn from mistakes so in effect, they are socially and emotionally retarded.
Not true for me or my siblings. We know my father loved us but his addiction clouded his decision making, among other things. I'm not making an excuse for him. I'm stating a cold, if complex, truth. Even abusers love their victims (spousal/child) but that doesn't mean their actions are not wrong. It simply means that people are complex beings and ignoring that is very unwise.
What do you mean by "love?" You must not think love is a verb but maybe just a warm and fuzzy feeling?
The highlighted is faulty reasoning, in my opinion. I believe people drink for unconscious reasons - often to attempt to medicate unbearable emotional pain and trauma - so "finding a way to restore normal brain function" is a tad too simplistic - smacks of the "pill quick fix" that Americans are so sold on for any problem or malady - and ironically the "pill quick fix" is often what leads to addiction in the first place.
Some people do. Some people don't. What's not in dispute, I hope, is that alcohol/drugs changes one's brain chemistry. What do you think happens when a person has a drink/line of coke? Why do we get a reaction from alcohol that we don't get from water? The effect of alcohol on the brain is real and not imaginary.
Medical science has progressed pass the point of simply dissecting an alcoholic brain to look and see what's happened. They understand that there are chemical/neurological changes that take place in some people's brains that don't take place in others. They can measure the neurological effect of alcohol on someone who is dependent vs someone who is not. They have isolated several genes that appear to be responsible for the differing reactions in people.
It is well known that some people become alcoholic drinkers whereas others don't. Some people can take drugs recreationally, others become dependent really quickly. Some whole ethic groups have very very low rates of dependence, some very high. There are obviously biological factors present which influence how people react differently to the same substance.
While there are complex layers to successful treatment, if they could find a way to make the neurological reaction of the addict the same as the non addict, we would go along way toward removing the first obstacle to treating people - the actual physical addiction to the substance. For some people, that's really all they actually need, as there are not necessarily any of the components that you've put forth at play with their issues with substances. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by imcurious
It's complete unawareness as to what can bring happiness and the effects of one's actions on others - pure selfish attempt at pain relief - and when it is discovered that it doesn't work - no increased awareness - just kind of a dumb and irresponsible way to live, in the end. No excuses - the people aren't retarded, but they don't learn from mistakes so in effect, they are socially and emotionally retarded.
Honestly, I have to ask, and not in a snarky way - how would you know?
What do you mean by "love?" You must not think love is a verb but maybe just a warm and fuzzy feeling?
I'm not going to quibble over the definition of "love" with you. Suffice to say, that yes, people who are very sick - whether it is addicted, mentally ill or have anger management issues - do love their families. They are highly flawed people, but to say they don't love their families? Well, that's really just a blanket statement not rooted much in truth.
I'm not going to quibble over the definition of "love" with you. Suffice to say, that yes, people who are very sick - whether it is addicted, mentally ill or have anger management issues - do love their families. They are highly flawed people, but to say they don't love their families? Well, that's really just a blanket statement not rooted much in truth.
Well the addict will say they love their families, and they will say they will quit drinking. They'll say they're sorry for the problems they created, the fact that they can't hold down a job.
And I think they mean it at the time. They also mean it when they threaten the life of the 3 year old who knocked over their drink. Really you can drive yourself in circles trying to figure out which is the real person inside the alcoholic -- is it the apologetic one who looks so sad and repentent? Is the one who just pawned the last valuables anyone in the family had just to get himself another cheap bottle of booze?
It comes down to the fact that talk is cheap for the alcoholics and often the apologies and promises are just to keep hold of the enablers so they'll go on making sure he's got a place to stay and food to eat. The alcoholic also means it when he robs even the kids of their money, he means to get himself his next fix and that's all that really matters. What good is love when it's 100 degrees and the alcoholic member of the house pawned away the last working fan? Because when he needed his fix, there was no love at all, no concern for the kids -- not whatsoever. Often it's when everyone stops falling for the lies -- and they are lies -- and get on with their lives and decide that their lives are no longer going to be dictated by alcohol and/or drugs and the alcoholic faces life without enablers and may or may not decide he/she must come clean.
I don't really see the need to tell the kids anything - they'll figure it all out on their own -- you don't have to tell them someone loves and pretend love is something it's not. You also don't have to tell them that the alcoholic would quit drinking if the alcoholic loved his/her family. The actions will stand for themselves, the kids will get it figured out, and that means the kids will also remember the sober side of that alcoholic. If there were enough good times, they'll remember them. If there weren't -- they'll remember that also.
I'm not going to quibble over the definition of "love" with you. Suffice to say, that yes, people who are very sick - whether it is addicted, mentally ill or have anger management issues - do love their families. They are highly flawed people, but to say they don't love their families? Well, that's really just a blanket statement not rooted much in truth.
Well, I could not disagree more. I think love is based in action. Have you read "A Road Less Traveled" - M. Scott Peck? He says love is a decision/commitment/coherent actions - not just a "feeling."
I don't know how anyone can equate destructive actions and ill-regard for others as "love." It sounds good, but it means nothing.
In the case of the children we are talking about in this thread - do you think they feel loved by their parents? Is the "love" truly nurturing, or is it just a sentiment such as you might read in a Hallmark card?
Some people do. Some people don't. What's not in dispute, I hope, is that alcohol/drugs changes one's brain chemistry. What do you think happens when a person has a drink/line of coke? Why do we get a reaction from alcohol that we don't get from water? The effect of alcohol on the brain is real and not imaginary.
Medical science has progressed pass the point of simply dissecting an alcoholic brain to look and see what's happened. They understand that there are chemical/neurological changes that take place in some people's brains that don't take place in others. They can measure the neurological effect of alcohol on someone who is dependent vs someone who is not. They have isolated several genes that appear to be responsible for the differing reactions in people.
It is well known that some people become alcoholic drinkers whereas others don't. Some people can take drugs recreationally, others become dependent really quickly. Some whole ethic groups have very very low rates of dependence, some very high. There are obviously biological factors present which influence how people react differently to the same substance.
While there are complex layers to successful treatment, if they could find a way to make the neurological reaction of the addict the same as the non addict, we would go along way toward removing the first obstacle to treating people - the actual physical addiction to the substance. For some people, that's really all they actually need, as there are not necessarily any of the components that you've put forth at play with their issues with substances. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Honestly, I have to ask, and not in a snarky way - how would you know?
I don't "know." These are just my opinions based upon my experiences and observations, coupled with my brain's reasoning mechanism.
As I said, I refuse to debate such an ethereal theme as "love". I will simply say that I know addicts and others are just as capable of love (barring sociopathic tendencies) as others.
MQ, not to bore you (or anyone else, for that matter) but they have a theory - yes I know there's lots of theories - that alcoholics carry a gene that makes them deficient in dopamine receptors/production, and that the effect of alcohol mimics the dopamine function of normal brain chemistry, so the brain seeks it out in order to be "normal".
If you think about it, there's no reason you shouldn't have become an alcoholic by virtue of your drinking when you were younger. Except - you just don't have the brain chemistry set up for it.
Please don't think that because of the behavioral problems alcohol causes that the alcoholic isn't suffering. Alcoholics suffer greatly. They aren't all abusive a holes. At least, they wouldn't be if they weren't alcoholic. It is truly dreadful how it effects everyone around them. Having been on all sides of this issue, I can truly have sympathy for everyone involved. No matter how self inflicted it appears, nobody asks for that to happen to them or their families. I think there's an emotional wall one puts up if one absolutely knows for sure they can't stop and that that's the end of them.
And yes, at that point society does have to put the children first.
We've discussed this before, but I have much admiration for you and the way you handle it with your child. Must be totally heart breaking and nerve wracking for you.
Thanks, Finster, yes, we've had these conversations before. It's not so terrible now that she's made it to adulthood and I'm divorced for ten years, but I still feel sorry for her having to deal with him. I could divorce my husband. She can't divorce her father as easily. And of course, it still effects me when, as recently, he loses another job and can't pay his share of the college bill so I have to pick up his slack. I will do it because it's my daughter, but it's a little annoying that I'm still being affected by the same old same old of his alcoholism.
I do agree on the brain chemistry--or something. There is SOMETHING that governs whether someone becomes addicted to alcohol or not. As we've discussed before, there's definitely (IMO) a set of personality characteristics that accompany alcoholism, but they are symptoms, not the reason.
I know intellectually that what you say is probably true--that the alcoholics suffer because of their alcoholism. But it certainly does not look that way, and it doesn't feel that way. They seem to get away with so, so much and not have to ever answer for the majority of what they have done.
But it is stronger. Obviously, just look at what you've written. "He wouldn't even stop for...." is a theme for you and just about everyone else who's involved with an addict. Doesn't the fact that he's drunken himself into a half fried mess and yet continues to drink tell you something?
If we want to lessen the damage done to families due to substance abuse, then IMO we've got to stop blaming the addict. People who are having problems with booze or drugs will not seek treatment because of the stigma attached. Struggling with this is unbelievably hard enough already. The shame and guilt and remorse one feels when they try and stop, coupled with the intense anxiety and physical discomfort brought on by withdrawal symptoms, piled on by disgust and finger pointing by one's loved ones - just contributes to the rotten cycle, and pretty much guarantees relapse and inability to quit.
If we want to sincerely do something about the damage done to the kids, then it's important to look at what's happening to the addicted person rationally and without all the blame and anger. I understand it's incredibly difficult. I understand how angry the behavior of an addicted person makes us. There's no easy answer, but if people would seek help earlier, if we could stop expecting people to will themselves out of a brain disorder and urge non judgmental treatment instead, then perhaps these situations wouldn't get to this point.
Of course, it can and does get to a stage where the only way for loved ones to preserve their own sanity and that of their children is to distance themselves from the person who is pretty much beyond any single person's ability to help. Because there currently is no one single way out, I think the only people really capable of helping the chronically addicted are other addicts who understand and have overcome.
Well said. I agree that only recovering addicts can help other addicts recover. Even then, there are some that can not be helped. My former best friend's people at her AA meeting gave up on her. She would show up drunk at the 7 a.m. meeting and deny she was drunk. They finally had to detach themselves from her for their own sanity and sobriety.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus
And, IMO, it does no good whatsoever for the kid involved to classify a child's addicted parent as a rotten, immoral person who couldn't care less. Firstly, that's usually not the truth, and secondly, if a person is sick enough to drink themselves to death or take drugs until they die - then they are truly incapable of caring for their children or anyone else and IMHO it's important that kids know that and don't have the impression that they weren't worth stopping for, or that their own value had anything whatsoever to do with their parent's illness.
It is VERY important. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, my sister is currently dying of cirrhosis. She and her daughter have never gotten along well because my sister was drunk and nasty to my niece growing up. But when my niece recently learned (and we all learned) how far downhill my sister has gone, she went to see her mother. She mentioned to another sister of mine "Well, mom has been drinking for 35 years." The other sister said she got off the phone and it dawned on her what that meant: My niece is 35. My alkie sister has always told her daughter she drank because of HER. And my niece apparently still believes that on some level. So, my non-alkie sister called her back and talked to her and said, "You have to be absolutely clear that your mother's alcoholism is NOT your fault."
Kids carry those emotions well into adulthood, perhaps forever.
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- that alcoholics carry a gene that makes them deficient in dopamine receptors/production, and that the effect of alcohol mimics the dopamine function of normal brain chemistry, so the brain seeks it out in order to be "normal".
