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Old 06-27-2010, 08:53 PM
 
2,725 posts, read 5,173,467 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Lecturing and time-outs are not the only kinds of discipline you can use. In fact, discipline as a word means teaching. If you are teaching your child to control his or her own behavior in positive ways, you will need much less punishment because your child will learn how to behave well.

Now, you still might need some consequences once in a while, but you won't need to spank and you may not even need time-outs (except as a way for a very young child to learn to self-calm).
Nana, I agree with you about the studies being flawed. I know people who were not spanked and are a real mess right now because they were not disciplined or as you defined it, they were not taught the right way.

When I look back in my life and think about the people who disciplined me but also managed to teach me better, they were only a handful of people. One was a priest who would never embarrass me for being late to mass. He had his consequences (serving the 6 am mass). However, it gave me the opportunity to feel like a good kid because all the elderly folks would be grateful that such a young kid wanted to serve the 6 am mass.

A word about lectures:
I can't stand lectures and my husband can't stand lectures, especially mine so my husband asked why can't we lecture our daughter . I told him, if she leaves a toy on the floor instead of picking it up, we take it away for a long time. No lecture needed, UNLESS she asks for one but that can be a punishment in itself especially when my husband gives it.
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Old 06-27-2010, 08:57 PM
 
2,605 posts, read 4,674,213 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Researchers at Tulane University shared their findings after studying approximately 2,500 mothers of three-year-olds and following them for a period of three to five years.

Those children who were spanked more frequently at the age of three (more than twice a month) seemed to exhibit more aggressive behavior by the age of five, including bullying, threatening and destruction. Although 45.6 percent of mothers in the study did not spank their children at all, 26.5 percent fell into the group who spanked more than twice a month. Many of those mothers in the frequent spanking group were also at other risks for parenting, something which was taken into account by the researchers.
You know what I think about studies for the most part: *gag*

Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
The problem with this study is that it doesn't account for the different punishment or discipline that was used with these teens. I object to many spanking studies on this ground as well because there are many confounding variables to take into account.
And there aren't in the study you quoted? C'mon, be honest. You're one sided on this subject so you will have faith in the study that suits you.

Let's talk about "confounding variables". In the study YOU quoted, perhaps the spanked kids were naturally more agressive or rambunctious and those who weren't, more naturally passive. No one would argue that there are kids who just plain don't need much dicipline and others who are constant challenges.

Why would a passive, complacent, obedient child need to be spanked?

Your study would only be true if all the kids were exactly the same. If they studied 500 placid children, spanked them all on a regular basis, then followed them for a few years, you'd have a more accurate claim. Or if they had taken 500 very active, very disobedient children and spanked them all, they would have had a more accurate claim. But then, all the children involved would have to come from exactly the same kind of family, i.e. income, makeup, location, background, siblings, etc..

Unless and only unless ALL variables are exactly the same, studies mean absolutely NOTHING. Not even the one you quoted.
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Old 06-27-2010, 09:53 PM
 
17,183 posts, read 22,764,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKP440 View Post
Once again thanks to those "concerned groups" who who would rather stick their noses in your homes and dictate how ALL parents should raise their children (instead of going after parents who ACTUALLY abuse their children) by passing legislation that makes ANY and ALL types of discipline a crime, then those same so called "experts" then label your child a behavior problem and have the parent put the kid on all kinds of meds (which eventually cause their own side effects i.e. liver damage etc..). Parents need to be allowed to be parents and do what THEY FEEL is best for their children.
The thing is - I did this a while ago and you do need to remember that there are still states that allow paddling in the schools.

Murder rates highest to lowest by state

*Louisiana paddling is legal
Maryland
*Mississippi paddling is legal
*Missouri paddling is legal
*Alabama paddling is legal
*New Mexico paddling is legal
*South Carolina paddling is legal
*Tennessee paddling is legal
*Georgia paddling is legal
Delaware
North Carolina paddling is legal
Florida paddling is legal
Nevada
Arizona paddling is legal
Illinois
California
*Oklahoma paddling is legal
*Arkansas paddling is legal
*Pennsylvania
*Texas paddling is legal
Michigan
Virginia
Ohio paddling is legal
Kentucky paddling is legal
New York
New Jersey
Alaska
Kansas paddling is legal
Nebraska
Connecticut
West Virginia
South Dakota
*Colorado paddling is legal
Washington
Rhode Island
Vermont
Wisconsin
Massachusetts
Iowa
Maine
Montana
Oregon
Minnesota
Hawaii
*Wyoming paddling is legal
Idaho paddling is legal
Utah
New Hampshire
North Dakota

While these are only correlations - note that the states where paddling is allowed have higher murder rates. It is also very likely that these states have high rates of parental spanking. The states where paddling in the schools is not allowed are more likely to have parents who use other disciplinary techniques and these states have lower murder rates

The astericked states are those in which school shootings occurred. These states for the most part allowed paddling in the schools.

Dorothy
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Old 06-27-2010, 10:04 PM
 
17,183 posts, read 22,764,827 times
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Btw. violent crime is *decreasing* as spanking decreases, not increasing

Violent crime in U.S. on the decline

For the third consecutive year, violent crime has declined in the United States, including a 7.2 percent reduction in homicides, preliminary FBI figures for 2009 released Monday show.

Dorothy
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Old 06-27-2010, 10:40 PM
 
2,605 posts, read 4,674,213 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Btw. violent crime is *decreasing* as spanking decreases, not increasing

Violent crime in U.S. on the decline

For the third consecutive year, violent crime has declined in the United States, including a 7.2 percent reduction in homicides, preliminary FBI figures for 2009 released Monday show.
That has nothing to do with spanking.

They (NCPA (National Center for Policy Analasis)"Over the period, wages have gone up and unemployment has gone down, which has had some impact in reducing crime, but a major reason for the reduction is that crime has become more costly to the perpetrators. The likelihood of going to prison for committing any type of major crime has increased substantially.") say it has a lot to do with the fact that wages have risen and unemployment dropped off, which makes sense. Look at all the fathers who have been murdering their families and then themselves in the past couple years since the economy has been so poor and there are no jobs. The murder rate has risen.

Has nothing to do with spanking. Nice try though.

Also, if that were the case, the school shootings would have been at their peak in the 40's, 50's and 60's and steadily slacked off after the 70's, but gee, I never heard of a school shooting until these past few years.
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Old 06-27-2010, 11:27 PM
 
2,605 posts, read 4,674,213 times
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School shootings:
U.S.A.:........................................... .............1966-1994 (28 years)=29 school shootings
.................................................. ................1995-2010 (15 years)=66 school shootings

Canada:........................................... ............1902-2008 (106 years)=9 school shootings

Europe (inclusive):...................................... ....1913-2009 (96 years)=19 school shootings

So.America (inclusive), Asia (inclusive), Australia: 1997-2008 (11 years)=8 school shootings

Canada:
Quote:
Section 43 of the Criminal Code of Canada, enacted in 1892, provides parents, teachers and caregivers — including babysitters and foster parents — a defence when they use corporal punishment as "reasonable force" to discipline children. The Supreme Court of Canada upheld the century-old law in 2004 when it was asked to rule on whether spanking constitutes "reasonable force" for disciplining children, or whether it is a form of abuse.
The court heard arguments on both sides of the debate and ruled by a 6-3 margin that the law was constitutional and should stand.
Read more: CBC News - Canada - To spank or not to spank?

Europe:
Quote:
Spanking children, whether at school or in the home, has been banned in Sweden since 1979. Seven European nations have passed similar laws since then
(According to World Corporal Punishment) Note: All other countries in Europe allow spanking.

South America, Asia:
Quote:
Berger (2001) states that most parents in America, Asia, Africa, and South America still believe spanking is acceptable, legitimate and necessary at times.
http://www.parentspartner.com/media/spanking-parentspartner.pdf (broken link)

Australia:
Quote:
All industrialised countries now ban corporal punishment in schools (not parental spanking) apart from the USA, Canada and one state in Australia.


Corporal Punishment (for Children): Debatabase - Debate Topics and Debate Motions

Bottom line: Spanking does not have an affect on violence later in life or these statistics would be vastly different.
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Old 06-27-2010, 11:33 PM
 
144 posts, read 305,939 times
Reputation: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by strawflower View Post
And people wonder why the current generation has problems! When I was in school, I can't really remember "bad stuff" (kids consistently failing tests, school fights, cliques of spoiled princesses, etc.) happening. IMO, since corporal punishment has been banned in so many schools, I've seen a rise in that stuff.
I agree. time out in the corner just doesnt cut it. a good spanking is far more effective. I have seen kid who get repeated time outs for stuff, but kids that get a spanking for bad behavior remember how bad that spanking felt and dont repeat their misbehavior (really cuts down on the back talking a unruliness).

since taking spanking away from schools I have seen a serious rise in the things you mention.
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:06 AM
 
4,267 posts, read 6,159,763 times
Reputation: 3579
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoExcuses View Post
School shootings:
U.S.A.:........................................... .............1966-1994 (28 years)=29 school shootings
.................................................. ................1995-2010 (15 years)=66 school shootings

Canada:........................................... ............1902-2008 (106 years)=9 school shootings

Europe (inclusive):...................................... ....1913-2009 (96 years)=19 school shootings

So.America (inclusive), Asia (inclusive), Australia: 1997-2008 (11 years)=8 school shootings

Canada:


Read more: CBC News - Canada - To spank or not to spank?

EuropeAccording to World Corporal Punishment) Note: All other countries in Europe allow spanking.

South America, Asia: http://www.parentspartner.com/media/spanking-parentspartner.pdf (broken link)

Australia:

Corporal Punishment (for Children): Debatabase - Debate Topics and Debate Motions

Bottom line: Spanking does not have an affect on violence later in life or these statistics would be vastly different.
That's quite a leap to say that school shootings are due to a lack of spankings. Do you have evidence that these particular shooters were never spanked? Could there be other factors that contribute to school shootings?
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Old 06-28-2010, 12:40 PM
 
2,605 posts, read 4,674,213 times
Reputation: 2194
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
The thing is - I did this a while ago and you do need to remember that there are still states that allow paddling in the schools.

While these are only correlations - note that the states where paddling is allowed have higher murder rates. It is also very likely that these states have high rates of parental spanking. The states where paddling in the schools is not allowed are more likely to have parents who use other disciplinary techniques and these states have lower murder rates

The astericked states are those in which school shootings occurred. These states for the most part allowed paddling in the schools.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorthy View Post
That's quite a leap to say that school shootings are due to a lack of spankings. Do you have evidence that these particular shooters were never spanked? Could there be other factors that contribute to school shootings?
Not any more of a leap than the assertion that spanking and murder have anything in common.

nana brought up the school shootings, not me. I merely did the research that she should have done before making that claim.

I found it interesting that since spanking has gone down, why has school shootings escalated to astronomical proportions in this country while other countries around the globe have not seen an increase and still spank.

Go figure.
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Old 06-28-2010, 02:30 PM
 
623 posts, read 1,598,200 times
Reputation: 723
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Btw. violent crime is *decreasing* as spanking decreases, not increasing

Violent crime in U.S. on the decline

For the third consecutive year, violent crime has declined in the United States, including a 7.2 percent reduction in homicides, preliminary FBI figures for 2009 released Monday show.

Dorothy

WOW WOW WOW!! You seem to have a very one sided opinion on this matter based on your posts. I have no idea how you are connecting school shootings and violence increase to spanking???? If you use your thinking I would say this.

Over the past 50 years the consumption of processed foods has gone up. Also in that same time period violence has gone up. So I guess processed foods is what causes violence. See how silly your arguement is.

Just because someone conducts a study and draws a conclusion does not make their conclusion right.

I was told for years that egg yolks were horrible for your cholesterol. Now recents studies show that wasn't accurate. I was told drinking is bad for you. Now a glass of wine a day is good for you.

For every study you have about spanking being bad there is another one that says it's not. So in the end you have exactly what we have today. Spankers and Non Spankers. 99% turn out fine either way.
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