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Old 06-29-2009, 11:27 AM
 
Location: NOT a native Pittsburgher
323 posts, read 835,135 times
Reputation: 130

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
In the coming oil poor decades, Emlenton should fare well. Farmlands are nearby - groceries won't be a problem.
They have a rail line, and access to the river.
The question: is the river navigable to PGH?

Any plans for engineering the Allegheny river to create a chain of small lakes for navigation, flood control, economic development, and so forth?

Similar thread:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/north...na-dammit.html
Dams are already on the Allegheny. They are the worst for pollution. Dams need to be done away with.
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Old 06-29-2009, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,023 posts, read 14,198,297 times
Reputation: 16747
Quote:
Originally Posted by bethany12 View Post
Dams are already on the Allegheny. They are the worst for pollution. Dams need to be done away with.
Please explain how impounding water via a dam generates pollution ?

And in lieu of dams, what would you use to generate hydroelectricity, save water in reservoirs, or control volume to prevent flooding?
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Old 06-30-2009, 09:50 PM
 
Location: NOT a native Pittsburgher
323 posts, read 835,135 times
Reputation: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Please explain how impounding water via a dam generates pollution ?

And in lieu of dams, what would you use to generate hydroelectricity, save water in reservoirs, or control volume to prevent flooding?
All rivers should be free-flowing. Flooding is a natural occurrence and healthy for the eco-system. Dams cause erosion, destruction of natural habitat, disrupt natural sediment deposition, harm the quality of surface water, etc. You should really read up on the negative effects of dams.
I am a supporter of wind and solar power.
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:15 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,023 posts, read 14,198,297 times
Reputation: 16747
Quote:
Originally Posted by bethany12 View Post
All rivers should be free-flowing.
There is no logical nor ecological reason for that conclusion. Humanity has been engineering rivers for thousands of years.

See: Grand Canal, in China.
Grand Canal - the longest ancient canal or artificial river in the world.

List of canals in France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There are 14,932 km of waterways in France, of which 6,969 km are heavily traveled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States
List of canals in the U.S.A.

Ohio and Erie Canal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Ohio Canal or Ohio and Erie Canal was a canal constructed in the early 1800s, which connected Akron, Summit County with the Cuyahoga River near the Cuyahoga's mouth on Lake Erie in Cleveland, Cuyahoga County, and a few years later, with the Ohio River near Portsmouth, Tuscarawas County, and then connections to other canal systems in Pennsylvania and Ohio.
This was the canal referenced in the movie "How the West Was Won", that linked the Mississippi River, via the Ohio River, to Lake Erie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._United_States
History of canals in the U.S.A.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inland_..._United_States
The inland waterways of the United States include over 25,000 miles (40000 km) of navigable waters.

Canal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Canals, in general.

Dam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Quote:
Flooding is a natural occurrence and healthy for the eco-system.
Such a sweeping generalization is unsupportable.
Case in point - the Tennessee River before the TVA. The flooding washed away topsoil, and left barren stretches of bottom land. With a controlled water level, the topsoil has recovered, and greatly expanded the wildlife habitat.


Quote:
Dams cause erosion, destruction of natural habitat, disrupt natural sediment deposition, harm the quality of surface water, etc.
How does a dam cause erosion? Are you referring to inundated topsoil as equivalent to erosion?

"Natural" habitat is a misnomer. Any habitat is in flux, and nature changes it from one condition to another - often to the detriment of life.

"Natural" sediment deposition is not preferable to unnatural sediment deposition. It's subjective.

What "quality" of the surface water do you refer to?
Oxygen content, suspended solids, plant and animal life?

"Natural" does not mean 'good' or preferable. It's just the original condition. And if humans need to change natural conditions to better support themselves, then unnatural is superior.

If you think going au natural is so great - take off your clothes - leave your house - and see how long you survive in a non-engineered wildlife habitat.
(I've tried it - it's not fun. Exposure to the 'natural' elements will kill you quicker than any other way, save suffocation. )

---------------
From TVA:
TVA operates the dams, locks, and reservoirs of the Tennessee River and its tributaries as one integrated system in order to provide multiple benefits for the region. These benefits include year-round navigation, flood damage reduction, affordable electricity, improved water quality and water supply, recreation, and economic growth.

----------------
It is obvious that you've been persuaded to accept "environmental preservation" as good. We have to stop teaching "environmental status quo" and begin imagining environmental multiplication via engineering. The planet's "natural" surface is NOT the limiting factor.

Amplifying the life bearing capacity of the planet is a GOOD THING. Thickening the life bearing VOLUME is what we need.

Even BEAVER DAMS boost the life bearing capacity of their habitat. (Or would you forbid beavers from altering the 'natural free flow'?)

Terraced mountain sides, that support agriculture are far better than 'natural' mountain sides. The terraces reduce soil erosion, and hold nutrients for the plants. Irrigation supports agriculture in areas that would be barren. Clearing land for fields, allows for more food production, than what "nature" would normally provide.

Even Central Park, in NYC, was a man-made "natural wonder", designed by architects and landscaped to look like the real thing.
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Old 07-01-2009, 05:09 AM
 
Location: NOT a native Pittsburgher
323 posts, read 835,135 times
Reputation: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
There is no logical nor ecological reason for that conclusion. Humanity has been engineering rivers for thousands of years.

See: Grand Canal, in China.
Grand Canal - the longest ancient canal or artificial river in the world.

List of canals in France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There are 14,932 km of waterways in France, of which 6,969 km are heavily traveled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States
List of canals in the U.S.A.

Ohio and Erie Canal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Ohio Canal or Ohio and Erie Canal was a canal constructed in the early 1800s, which connected Akron, Summit County with the Cuyahoga River near the Cuyahoga's mouth on Lake Erie in Cleveland, Cuyahoga County, and a few years later, with the Ohio River near Portsmouth, Tuscarawas County, and then connections to other canal systems in Pennsylvania and Ohio.
This was the canal referenced in the movie "How the West Was Won", that linked the Mississippi River, via the Ohio River, to Lake Erie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._United_States
History of canals in the U.S.A.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inland_..._United_States
The inland waterways of the United States include over 25,000 miles (40000 km) of navigable waters.

Canal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Canals, in general.

Dam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Such a sweeping generalization is unsupportable.
Case in point - the Tennessee River before the TVA. The flooding washed away topsoil, and left barren stretches of bottom land. With a controlled water level, the topsoil has recovered, and greatly expanded the wildlife habitat.


How does a dam cause erosion? Are you referring to inundated topsoil as equivalent to erosion?

"Natural" habitat is a misnomer. Any habitat is in flux, and nature changes it from one condition to another - often to the detriment of life.

"Natural" sediment deposition is not preferable to unnatural sediment deposition. It's subjective.

What "quality" of the surface water do you refer to?
Oxygen content, suspended solids, plant and animal life?

"Natural" does not mean 'good' or preferable. It's just the original condition. And if humans need to change natural conditions to better support themselves, then unnatural is superior.

If you think going au natural is so great - take off your clothes - leave your house - and see how long you survive in a non-engineered wildlife habitat.
(I've tried it - it's not fun. Exposure to the 'natural' elements will kill you quicker than any other way, save suffocation. )

---------------
From TVA:
TVA operates the dams, locks, and reservoirs of the Tennessee River and its tributaries as one integrated system in order to provide multiple benefits for the region. These benefits include year-round navigation, flood damage reduction, affordable electricity, improved water quality and water supply, recreation, and economic growth.

----------------
It is obvious that you've been persuaded to accept "environmental preservation" as good. We have to stop teaching "environmental status quo" and begin imagining environmental multiplication via engineering. The planet's "natural" surface is NOT the limiting factor.

Amplifying the life bearing capacity of the planet is a GOOD THING. Thickening the life bearing VOLUME is what we need.

Even BEAVER DAMS boost the life bearing capacity of their habitat. (Or would you forbid beavers from altering the 'natural free flow'?)

Terraced mountain sides, that support agriculture are far better than 'natural' mountain sides. The terraces reduce soil erosion, and hold nutrients for the plants. Irrigation supports agriculture in areas that would be barren. Clearing land for fields, allows for more food production, than what "nature" would normally provide.

Even Central Park, in NYC, was a man-made "natural wonder", designed by architects and landscaped to look like the real thing.

I notice you didn't provide the information as to how those rivers/canals have become flowing dumps. There are running jokes about the Cuyahoga being a river of fire. The same thing with the dams, Three River Gorges for example.

In TN, where do you think that topsoil goes? Why do you think Katrina hit NO so hard?

Beaver Dams are only temporary and act as floods to the land. You are way off on that one and don't even know what you are talking about.

Running around the house naked and living in nature is a great thing. I believe in the homesteading movement, so less man-made interference the better. Native Americans had it right.

I haven't been persuaded by "environmental preservation". I have deeply studied biology and natural sciences. Something it seems you have not done.
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Old 07-01-2009, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,023 posts, read 14,198,297 times
Reputation: 16747
Quote:
Originally Posted by bethany12 View Post
I notice you didn't provide the information as to how those rivers/canals have become flowing dumps.
Some were abused, some weren't.
What's the problem?
The Susquehanna River, which is mostly not engineered, is a flowing dump, too. And its sediment is choking the Chesapeake Bay fisheries. And floods ravage the watershed. A dam might alleviate those problems.
Quote:
There are running jokes about the Cuyahoga being a river of fire. The same thing with the dams, Three River Gorges for example.
The Cuyahoga was a dumping ground. Is it still? According to reports, it has significantly improved.

And the dam at Three River Gorges is not creating a river of fire. It will create a massive boom in the local economy - from hydropower - from navigable waterways - and an end to costly flooding.

Dams can incorporate habitat enriching features such as fish ladders, locks, mixed level spillways, as well as segregation of pollutants.
Fish ladder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Fish ladders are known to be very effective. Written reports of rough fishways date to 17th-century France, where bundles of branches were used to create steps in steep channels to bypass obstructions.
Quote:
In TN, where do you think that topsoil goes? Why do you think Katrina hit NO so hard?
If erosion is checked, the topsoil stays where it is. Before the TVA, that topsoil wound up downstream.
The loss of sediment in the mouth of the Mississippi and the change in the delta may affect New Orleans, but if you stop and think, it is a STUPID position that millions of tons of topsoil must be sacrificed so a delta can be replenished naturally.
Ask the Dutch about "natural erosion" and their response.
Oh, right - they're DAM BUILDERS and land reclamation experts.
Netherlands - roughly 1/5 land is from land reclamation; about 7,000 km²
I don't think the Dutch would give up 20% of their country to go natural.
Modern Holland (http://www.geerts.com/holland/holland-modern.htm - broken link)

Instead of bemoaning the loss of barrier islands, Deltans might invest in building some barrier dams, and reclaim the land from the sea.

Quote:
Beaver Dams are only temporary and act as floods to the land. You are way off on that one and don't even know what you are talking about.
Having lived by a few, and watched a farmer go ballistic as his cornfield was ruined, may not be important to you. But that farmer was a "true" naturalist and blew up the beaver's dam to restore the "free flow".

Quote:
Running around the house naked and living in nature is a great thing. I believe in the homesteading movement, so less man-made interference the better. Native Americans had it right.
I haven't been persuaded by "environmental preservation". I have deeply studied biology and natural sciences. Something it seems you have not done.
Study and reality are often at odds.
Consider the recent discoveries that overturn the "academic" view about the Amazon river watershed.
The previous view was that the Amazon rainforest was home to nomadic tribes, who were "living gently on the land."

However, prior to the arrival of the Europeans, the Amazon basin had a sophisticated agricultural society, with cities, roads, and organized society. But after the virulent diseases took their toll, later explorers found nothing but a rain forest, scattered tribes, and thus discounted reports of a robust civilization.

See: Terra Preta.
The Spanish explorer Francisco de Orellana, the 16th Century explorer who was the first European to transverse the Amazon River, reported densely populated regions running hundreds of kilometers along the river, suggesting population levels exceeding even those of today. These populations left no lasting monuments, possibly because they used local wood as their construction material, which would have rotted in the humid climate (stone was unavailable). While it is possible Orellana may have exaggerated the level of development among the Amazonians, their semi-nomadic descendants have the odd distinction among tribal indigenous societies of a hereditary, yet landless, aristocracy, a historical anomaly for a society without a sedentary, agrarian culture. This suggests they once were more settled and agrarian but became nomadic after the demographic collapse of the 16th and 17th century, due to European-introduced diseases, while still maintaining certain traditions.
Scientists scoffed at the initial reports, because the Amazonian soil IS not suitable for agriculture. So such tales of high population, agriculture and urbanization were discounted. Except that terra preta was a man-made soil that DID support extensive agriculture in the Amazonian basin - which meant that the rain forest was NOT all pervasive.
There is ample evidence for complex large-scale, pre-Columbian social formations, including chiefdoms, in many areas of Amazonia (particularly the inter-fluvial regions) and even large towns and cities. For instance the pre-Columbian culture on the island of Marajo may have developed Social stratification and supported a population of 100,000 people.
OMG - indigenous Americans ENGINEERED SOIL and farmed the Amazon.
How un-green! How un-natural!
William I. Woods (soil biologist/archaeologist at the University of Kansas) estimates that around 10% of the original terra comum appears to have been converted to Terra preta. According to William Balée (anthropologist at Tulane University in New Orleans), the spreads of tropical forest between the savannas could be mainly anthropogenic (man caused) – a notion with dramatic implications worldwide for agriculture and conservation.
UH OH - those pristine rainforests, the "lungs" of the planet, may have been the result of HUMANS, abandoning the terra preta farms, due to the collapse of their civilization from disease.
Some also question the low count of the population of indigenous Americans, and suggest that there was a more advanced culture.
1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

--------------
Would you object to damless hydro technology?
Gorlov helical turbine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Gorlov helical turbine (GHT) is a Water turbine evolved from the Darrieus turbine design by altering it to have helical blades/foils.
A GHT is proposed for low-head micro hydro installations, when construction of a dam is undesirable. The GHT is an example of damless hydro technology. The technology may potentially offer cost and environmental benefits over dam-based micro-hydro systems.
-----------
How about 'green dams'?
'Green dams' could cut greenhouse gas emissions - SciDev.Net
Methane is produced by bacteria breaking down organic matter in oxygen-poor conditions (anaerobic digestion) at the bottom of reservoirs. Hydroelectric turbines are fed this methane-rich water from intake pipes deep in the dam, and the methane is released into the atmosphere.
To prevent methane-rich water entering the turbines, the INPE team's solution is to channel methane-free surface water to the intake pipes.
Meanwhile, deep water is pumped to a rotor at the surface. This creates droplets to liberate the dissolved gas, which is then piped to a plant and burnt to produce electricity, supplementing energy produced by the turbines.
Wow, a win-win situation. Methane (natural gas) is collected and used.

(Anaerobic digestion is the method used by septic tanks and waste treatment plants around the world. But aerobic digestion is nice, too.)
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Old 07-01-2009, 07:40 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
45,373 posts, read 60,546,019 times
Reputation: 60980
A note on the Chesapeake and Susquehanna. Most of the sediment in the Bay is coming from MD activities, mostly deforestation related to development along the Bay and the various in-state tributaries. Most of the PA Susquehanna sediment is trapped at the Conowingo Dam. The last major release of it came in 1972 with Hurricane Agnes. You are correct about that event, the released sediment choked the Bay and the impact lasted into the 1980's, which is when the development pressures began. The sediment now trapped at Conwingo is again becoming a concern, it's taken away something like 40% of the pool capacity with removal and disposal estimates ranging from $1Billion to $4Billion, which no one is willing to take on.
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