Shuster: Improved Rail Access wrong for central PA & Pittsburgh (Philadelphia: 2013, transfer)

[couldntthinkofaclevername]

Originally Posted by pman

I'm still not understanding the relevance of your point to a discussion about rail. you're talking about ethnicities all sorts of other stuff that isn't particularly useful. we're talking about Pennsylvania here, not other states. you can disagree about the nec but it's a fact..american sprawl means there is much less rural areas and urban areas are very expensive in which to build, thus the cost of new right of way in the nec is astronomical. that doesn't mean it isn't worth it, but it does make it much more expensive. however, I don't think you're getting my point

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Pittsburgh is a branch of the nec, or would be. it makes sense to improve the rail connections outside the nec, otherwise the idea will just be abandoned. and let's face it, we're not even talking high speed rail, just improved rail. so just to get your point straight, because we wiped out the american indians, you oppose improving rail access to pittsburgh?

The relevance is that you responded to my post when I mentioned about why the metro areas of those cities in Europe and elsewhere tend to be larger than ours. A post that was responding to the post above mine. I then explained myself further, even though I had made my point very clear. Do not tell me I'm not talking about "useful things" because first of all I did not bring the subject up and secondly YOU responded to ME.

No, it's not a fact. The Northeast Corridor is not too dense to build high speed rail. Seriously, what are you talking about?

I'm sorry... please show me EXACTLY where I said any of that. I don't take very kindly to people twisting around my words or putting words in my mouth. In fact, I don't take it very well at all and really, really do not appreciate it when somebody who is clearly incapable of making an argument feels the need to do things like that. Do not do it again.

Please show me exactly where I said I oppose improving rail access to Pittsburgh. Once you realize that you can't, apologize to me for putting words in my mouth, twisting around what I actually said, and talking condescendingly to me when you are not even remotely superior to me.

[pman]

Originally Posted by couldntthinkofaclevername

No, it's not a fact. The Northeast Corridor is not too dense to build high speed rail. Seriously, what are you talking about?

I know you're a little slow but let's try this again. since the nec is almost completely developed, it's density drives up land acquisition prices, which in turn makes building high speed rail very difficult. if it were dense, compact cities with rural areas, it would be cheaper, since it's much easier to deal with open space than housing tracts.

Originally Posted by couldntthinkofaclevername

I'm sorry... please show me EXACTLY where I said any of that. I don't take very kindly to people twisting around my words or putting words in my mouth.

you basically spouted off a bunch of nonsense and now you're getting your panties in a knot. if there's anyone incapable of making an argument, much less one relevant to any of the topics you post to, it's clearly you.

Originally Posted by couldntthinkofaclevername

Please show me exactly where I said I oppose improving rail access to Pittsburgh. Once you realize that you can't, apologize to me for putting words in my mouth, twisting around what I actually said, and talking condescendingly to me when you are not even remotely superior to me.

you were going on and on about nec and natives, I figured it had to have something to do with the topic of the thread, but that was my mistake, I'm sorry I assumed you were talking about something relevant or coherent.won't happen again chief

[2nd trick op]

Originally Posted by Duderino

I think that's an oversimplification.

The fact of the matter is that America's current highway system is highly deficient and strongly lack capacity due to decades of underinvestment. Not to mention our urban areas are getting more and more congested by the day. We absolutely are in dire need of multiple modes of inter-city travel, aside from cars, buses and air. Maybe high-speed rail may not be the model of choice for most cases, but more rail enhancements and coverage is just common sense.

Let me say at the outset that I majored in Business Logistics with an additional minor in Transport Economics.

I graduated from college in the early 1970's, when the American rail industry was in the depths of a slump that began at the close of World War II and would continue until the mid-1980's, with work-rules reform (2-man crews repalcing 5 men, no caboose, and longer crew districts (in terms of miles) the overwhelming driving force in the industry's revival.

There were no opportunities in the rail industry of the day, so I gravitated into regulated trucking, which was taking huge amounts of high-profile traffic, such as dressed meat and perishables, away from the rail carriers. Completion of the Interstate highway system, particularly toll-free Interstate 80 across Northen Pennsylvania, set off the boom.

This was to continue until the deregulation movement began in the late 1970's. In addition to allowing more competitive rate-making policies for the railroads, the reforms brought an end to the "regular-route" system which preserved the near-monopolies that many truckers held in smaller markets.

The result was a massacre; of the top 100 trucking lines lited in the industry publication Commercial Car Journal in 1971, fewer than fifteen survive today. And a lot of the high-value traffic mentioned previously has found its way back onto the rails, but in refrigerated semitrailers and containers.

The present-day trucking industry is healthy, but shrinking in prominence, surrendering much of the long-haul for intermediate-range pickup and delivery from rail intermodal terminals, or items like groceries and consumer goods that can no loger be hauled siding-to-siding. But i can say from first-hand experience that not only do very-large trucks not pay their full share of highway mainainence -- there is a serious safety issue evolving as personal automobiles become smaller, lighter, and less-crashworthy. A few conservative pundits, most notably Mark Levin, have tried to call attention to the downside of "CAFE standards", but the issue is being largely swept under the rug.

Obviously, many of us can't afford to return to the vehicle sizes and weights we enjoyed when gasoline was 25 cents a gallon. So I expect this hidden threat to continue, just as industrial accidents no longer command as much atention as when 100 men died at a time in mine disasters. There may one day be an incident which could give birth to a movement against very large trucks, just a MADD focused our attention on drunken driving, but it hasn't happened yet.

That process, plus a public which remains disenchanted with the sixe and confinement of smaller vehicles, but really has no choice, is the only means by which I can envision a revival of rail passenger service, but it will have to "build outward" into the exurbs and corridors, rather than be imposed as the new and very-costly HSR systems envisioned by the dreamers.

[pman]

The exurbs are already starting their long term decline. Despite lack of investment and slow speeds rail and bus service for intercity travel are both increasing...you dont need to be a dreamer to see the utility of high speed rail..in fact many transportation experts see it. The current economocs of air travel do not allow for reasonably priced cross state air travel. Rail would be a lot cheaper if the fra would adopt sensible regulations

[blauskies]

The whole infrastructure existed in and around Central PA and beyond west and east, but after passenger rail traffic declined in the 30's and then after Conrail, much of the ROW was ripped out and/or abandoned. The PRR, Reading, NYC, DL&W, WM to name a few, once had passenger service in most of the state.

The PRR had the Bellefonte Branch, which connected into State College via the Bellefonte Central back in the early 50's. That's about when passenger service ended.

Basically everything was there in some shape or form a long time ago, but due to economics and the then cheap price of gas, car ownership and trucks the railroads declined and now it's one of those we had it then we tossed it away things

[couldntthinkofaclevername]

Originally Posted by blauskies

The whole infrastructure existed in and around Central PA and beyond west and east, but after passenger rail traffic declined in the 30's and then after Conrail, much of the ROW was ripped out and/or abandoned. The PRR, Reading, NYC, DL&W, WM to name a few, once had passenger service in most of the state.

The PRR had the Bellefonte Branch, which connected into State College via the Bellefonte Central back in the early 50's. That's about when passenger service ended.

Basically everything was there in some shape or form a long time ago, but due to economics and the then cheap price of gas, car ownership and trucks the railroads declined and now it's one of those we had it then we tossed it away things

It's kind of amazing to think that the current trolley lines at 69th street in Upper Darby used to carry trains from Pittsburgh and elsewhere in the days of the PRR.

[blauskies]

Originally Posted by couldntthinkofaclevername

It's kind of amazing to think that the current trolley lines at 69th street in Upper Darby used to carry trains from Pittsburgh and elsewhere in the days of the PRR.

Yep, a person could even get on a train in the rural parts of PA and get to Philly or elsewhere with ease. When you look at once was and what is now, it boggles the mind why little of it survived. Some of it could have been used salvaged for light rail or commuter lines.

I'm still amazed they ripped out the line that went from Harrisburg to Baltimore when now there are plenty of people who commute to and from that area.

http://www.readingrailroad.org/readi...m_15x9_300.jpg

Pennsylvania Railroad System Map - Pennsylvania

[couldntthinkofaclevername]

Originally Posted by blauskies

Yep, a person could even get on a train in the rural parts of PA and get to Philly or elsewhere with ease. When you look at once was and what is now, it boggles the mind why little of it survived. Some of it could have been used salvaged for light rail or commuter lines.

I'm still amazed they ripped out the line that went from Harrisburg to Baltimore when now there are plenty of people who commute to and from that area.

http://www.readingrailroad.org/readi...m_15x9_300.jpg

Pennsylvania Railroad System Map - Pennsylvania

Development and the rise of the automobile, unfortunately. A lot of the places where rail lines were are now suburban or rural communities that probably don't want that kind of "disturbance" or "nuisance" in their backyard.

I think at least when it comes to the Philadelphia area that they should extend the subway so it goes virtually everywhere, at least throughout all of Philadelphia and through the inner-ring. Trolleys are fine to go through Springfield and Drexel Hill but the inner-ring definitely needs subway service in places like Upper Darby. They definitely need to extend service to Allentown and Reading again too.

[DarkWolf]

Originally Posted by couldntthinkofaclevername

Development and the rise of the automobile, unfortunately. A lot of the places where rail lines were are now suburban or rural communities that probably don't want that kind of "disturbance" or "nuisance" in their backyard.

I think at least when it comes to the Philadelphia area that they should extend the subway so it goes virtually everywhere, at least throughout all of Philadelphia and through the inner-ring. Trolleys are fine to go through Springfield and Drexel Hill but the inner-ring definitely needs subway service in places like Upper Darby. They definitely need to extend service to Allentown and Reading again too.

Theres the Full build out plans from Septa , City and state...and Southern NJ...

SE PA & SNJ 2060 Rail / Transit Plans & Proposals - Google Maps

[couldntthinkofaclevername]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Theres the Full build out plans from Septa , City and state...and Southern NJ...

SE PA & SNJ 2060 Rail / Transit Plans & Proposals - Google Maps

Thanks for creating that.

Unfortunately, I highly doubt any of that will be built anytime soon with the idiots we have in Harrisburg right now.

By the way, how many/which ones of the proposed lines would be underground?