VT family deciding where to relocate in PA - Help! (Pittsburgh: ski resorts, section 8)
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Hi All,
I have been digging around in this forum for a few days now, and there is a lot of great information on here and helpful people. But I have not yet found the answer to my questions. A quick bit about us: family of 4, 2 kids in K and 5th. My kid's school has 142 kids in it, K-6. We are a law enforcement family (both cops) and my hubby is also 1st lieutanant on the local FD. So, a good, safe area, low crime, good schools, good volunteer FD, are a must. I am finding there are quite a few of these places in PA. We need to narrow it down. (We will not be pursuing LE jobs in PA, but, as you can imagine, we are a bit more sensitive to the areas we live in.)
We live in a rural area. So here is my question: where are the areas that are fairly rural (not 'burbs) with green, rolling hills, near a larger area for work that actually has jobs and the housing is not astronomical? And friendly. I've read on here about a few communities that are not friendly to new comers. I want no part of places like that. Oh yeah, and not a repressed area. There is no kind way to put this, but I do not want to live in an area with a lot of mobile homes and section 8. We have enough of that here and are trying to get away from it. And finally, I don't want to drive an hour to work either. Yes, I know, I'm picky.
Places we have considered so far: Anything SE of Philly: No.
Any City: No.
Cranberry Township: I like, but seems flat and a bit pricey. Love the FD here. Its my #1 choice so far.
Williamsport: seems to have hills and jobs, but I can't get a feel for the area overall.
Can I get a Cranberry Township type place, a little more affordable, with good schools, low crime, and some hills? Where is this magical place?
Ultimately, a job and the schools will make the decision, but knowing what areas to keep in mind and what areas to avoid will help narrow it down. You've got a bit more area down there!
As I said, we will not be pursuing jobs in law enforcement when we move. I only mention it because it can give a respondent a sense of the kind of people we are and the kinds of places we would not be comfortable.
We will also be renting, so property taxes are a moot issue for us, essentially.
Does anyone have some guidance about Cranberry township - anywhere to avoid there or nearby?
Hi there! As Davros said, I would look into the State College area for your family. It has the hills, good schools, and low crime. Penn State, as well as the many other companies in State College, offer jobs.
I would suggest the outlying areas of the State College School District(especially Pine Grove Mills, Boalsburg, and Stormstown) as well as the Bellefonte area, Bald Eagle area, and Penns Valley. All good school systems. State High graduates approx. 600 a year, Bellefonte 200-250ish, and Penns Valley and Bald Eagle 150-200ish. The only thing that concerns me, with any of these areas, is finding a rental. Of course if you have a larger budget it will be easier, but especially if you want acreage, it will be hard to find a single family home in these areas to rent. It's not impossible, but most people buy. Also, please be aware that many people around here do live in mobile homes/double wides/manufactured homes and they are very nice and well-kept. Many people are able to afford more land to live on if they build a more affordable manufactured home on it.
All these places have great volunteer FD. Alpha Fire Department:Alpha Fire Company. covers State College and it is huge. Another pretty big one is Pleasant Gap: Welcome to the Pleasant Gap Fire Company! (Bellefonte schools), they have a large parade and carnival every summer. But every small town/township in the area has a department. Bellefonte even has two(Logans and Undines).
These places may help you find some rentals: Witherite Property Management | Here to Help You with all your Housing Needs!, Jabco Realty Management, also check craigslist.
Bellefonte Schools: Bellefonte Area School District / Bellefonte Area School District
State College Schools: State College Area School District / Home Page
Penns Valley Schools: Penns Valley Area School District
Bald Eagle Schools: Bald Eagle Area School District - BEA Home
Good Luck!!
Can I get a Cranberry Township type place, a little more affordable, with good schools, low crime, and some hills? Where is this magical place?
Ultimately, a job and the schools will make the decision, but knowing what areas to keep in mind and what areas to avoid will help narrow it down. You've got a bit more area down there!
You're in luck. I'm a life-long Pennsylvania resident, but my family has lived in Vermont for the past three winters. I know what you're hoping to find in topography!
Cranberry Township is a housing development, strip-mall suburb of Pittsburgh, PA. It's located about 30 to 40 minutes drive north from Downtown Pittsburgh, depending on traffic. It is flatter up there than the rest of the region.
Pittsburgh has a very steep topography. As a matter of fact, the roads are steeper than the roads in your mountains.
If you think you would be happy living in a city metro, consider the suburban townships in the northern part of Allegheny County. The population isn't as dense compared to other parts of the county, and it's still fairly hilly terrain compared to southern and western suburbs. Some of the townships are rural, which is rare for being in the county of a metropolitan city. Of course, the best school districts will be more heavily populated, but most of Pennsylvania's average schools will be better than the schools in Vermont so take that into consideration when you're looking at school ratings and trying to find a rural township close to a large city.
Of the surrounding counties, the hilliest counties are to the west of Pittsburgh. Our ski resorts are an hour away from Downtown Pittsburgh, so that gives you an idea of how quickly the terrain elevates. The closest county to the west is called Westmoreland County. Armstrong is the next convenient and Somerset is where the ski resorts are located. If you locate yourself near the interstate, you can easily commute from Somerset county to more populated areas. Counties south, west and north of Allegheny County are fairly flat by your standards.
Definitely focus your search to the Pittsburgh greater metro area. The cost of living is significantly lower here on the western side of the state and our economy is really strong. It's really the only region with all three: low cost of living, strong economy, AND hills.
Here's a map of the counties in southwestern PA to help make sense of everything I just said.
Although the center of our state is all mountains, there is limited employment in those areas. Southeastern PA, the Philly metro, is flat and has a high cost of living. Northeastern PA is mountainous but has a high cost of living due to it becoming a NYC metro suburb. Northwestern PA is flat. Finding the right hilly area near the Pittsburgh metro is your best bet.
Here's the topography of the state below. Pittsburgh is located where the three rivers meet on the bottom left corner of the state.
You're in luck. I'm a life-long Pennsylvania resident, but my family has lived in Vermont for the past three winters. I know what you're hoping to find in topography!
Cranberry Township is a housing development, strip-mall suburb of Pittsburgh, PA. It's located about 30 to 40 minutes drive north from Downtown Pittsburgh, depending on traffic. It is flatter up there than the rest of the region.
Pittsburgh has a very steep topography. As a matter of fact, the roads are steeper than the roads in your mountains.
If you think you would be happy living in a city metro, consider the suburban townships in the northern part of Allegheny County. The population isn't as dense compared to other parts of the county, and it's still fairly hilly terrain compared to southern and western suburbs. Some of the townships are rural, which is rare for being in the county of a metropolitan city. Of course, the best school districts will be more heavily populated, but most of Pennsylvania's average schools will be better than the schools in Vermont so take that into consideration when you're looking at school ratings and trying to find a rural township close to a large city.
Of the surrounding counties, the hilliest counties are to the west of Pittsburgh. Our ski resorts are an hour away from Downtown Pittsburgh, so that gives you an idea of how quickly the terrain elevates. The closest county to the west is called Westmoreland County. Armstrong is the next more convenient and Somerset is where the ski resorts are located. If you locate yourself near the interstate, you can easily commute from Somerset county to more populated areas. Counties south, west and north of Allegheny County are fairly flat by your standards.
Definitely focus your search to the Pittsburgh greater metro area. The cost of living is significantly lower here on the western side of the state and our economy is really strong. It's really the only region with all three: low cost of living, strong economy, AND hills.
Here's a map of the counties in southwestern PA to help make sense of everything I just said.
Although the center of our state is all mountains, there is limited employment in those areas. Southeastern PA, the Philly metro, is flat and has a high cost of living. Northeastern PA is mountainous but has a high cost of living due to it becoming a NYC metro suburb. Northwestern PA is flat. Finding the right hilly area near the Pittsburgh metro is your best bet.
Here's the topography of the state below. Pittsburgh is located where the three rivers meet on the bottom left corner of the state.
Hope - GREAT post! I had no idea it was very hilly in the Pittsburgh area and to the west of it! We started looking at Williamsport, then Harrisburg area, then we concentrated on Butler County, decided it was too expensive, started looking north of Harrisburg again... Sigh. The school and fire department is such an important component. And as you said, PA schools are better than VT schools - even the ones without gold stars. I like Pittsburgh, it is one of the few cities I can call pretty. I don't want to live in a housing development strip mall area. Not interested in snooty clicky places either. The whole area south of Harrisburg is pretty much not for us.
I appreciate the info, and I'll look more closely around Pittsburgh again.
We'll be moving from Ludlow (Okemo).
Where are you? How have your last three winters been? I know this one has been a bear. Even the lifers are sick of it. For a family with kids, PA or VT in your opinion?
Last edited by toobusytoday; 04-08-2013 at 06:43 AM..
The school and fire department is such an important component.
We have very good fire departments here. The city has paid firefighters. Everywhere else is volunteer but they are well funded, solid fire departments with quick response times. I'm guessing you're asking for a good fire department because it's pretty scary in Vermont. My son was afraid of fire where he lived because there wasn't really a reliable fire department nearby.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiplarue
We started looking at Williamsport, then Harrisburg area, then we concentrated on Butler County, decided it was too expensive, started looking north of Harrisburg again... Sigh. The whole area south of Harrisburg is pretty much not for us.
The area north of Harrisburg (Selinsgrove, Sunbury, Lewisburg) is very nice, but it can be expensive up there. It's an interesting area because it's rural with some nice sized towns and a good economy because there are so many colleges up there. South of Harrisburg would not be for you because it's very flat. Plus, DC and Baltimore are hopping the border which is driving up property values down there too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiplarue
And as you said, PA schools are better than VT schools - even the ones without gold stars. I like Pittsburgh, it is one of the few cities I can call pretty. I don't want to live in a housing development strip mall area. Not interested in snooty clicky places either.
The rural townships in Allegheny County's northern suburbs would be West Deer, Fawn, Frazer, Harrison. Indiana Township has rural areas too and it's in one of the best school districts of the state, Fox Chapel. Keep in mind, our topography allows for having a home in a rural setting while living in a suburban township. The newer houses will be in developments, but you can snatch up older houses that used to be farm houses or houses isolated in ravines where you can't see any neighbors. I'm well aware of the housing stock in Vermont and the condition of it. Our 100 year old houses won't seem old to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiplarue
I appreciate the info, and I'll look more closely around Pittsburgh again.
We'll be moving from Ludlow (Okemo).
Where are you? How have your last three winters been? I know this one has been a bear. Even the lifers are sick of it. For a family with kids, PA or VT in your opinion?
I know Ludlow. I've been through there. It's north of Londonderry. The Vermont Country Store is between the two towns
I'm in Hampton Township. It has rolling hills and a good school district, but you might think it's expensive. There are some older homes that aren't expensive though.
As for which is better, that's subjective. My personal opinion is Pennsylvania. It has a better school system and more opportunities. There are more things for children to do. We can enjoy the great outdoors here and have all that plus employment. Being raised with parents who have viable employment makes for a better place to grow up. In Vermont, so many people work multiple jobs to make ends meet. There's also more exposure to the arts and other things. A trip to the zoo or a museum isn't a vacation, but just an hour away from a surrounding county, and 20 minutes from where I live.
Most importantly for me, exposure to diverse ideas. I don't even mean race, just exposure to different ways of looking at things. Pittsburghers are very tolerant, individual freedom type people, who don't judge others, and are very accepting and friendly. My experience has been that many Vermonters don't like outsiders (flatlanders), nor anyone different than them, and are very fearful of change. That's not a mindset that will help children become successful in tomorrow's economy. (Funny you said you want to avoid clicky because Vermont is the clickiest place I've ever been.) I've also read that so many young people leave Vermont for employment. Growing up in PA makes it more likely that children will be able to stay nearby to work and raise families instead of moving away like they do in Vermont.
We have very good fire departments here. The city has paid firefighters. Everywhere else is volunteer but they are well funded, solid fire departments with quick response times. I'm guessing you're asking for a good fire department because it's pretty scary in Vermont. My son was afraid of fire where he lived because there wasn't really a reliable fire department nearby.
The area north of Harrisburg (Selinsgrove, Sunbury, Lewisburg) is very nice, but it can be expensive up there. It's an interesting area because it's rural with some nice sized towns and a good economy because there are so many colleges up there. South of Harrisburg would not be for you because it's very flat. Plus, DC and Baltimore are hopping the border which is driving up property values down there too.
The rural townships in Allegheny County's northern suburbs would be West Deer, Fawn, Frazer, Harrison. Indiana Township has rural areas too and it's in one of the best school districts of the state, Fox Chapel. Keep in mind, our topography allows for having a home in a rural setting while living in a suburban township. The newer houses will be in developments, but you can snatch up older houses that used to be farm houses or houses isolated in ravines where you can't see any neighbors. I'm well aware of the housing stock in Vermont and the condition of it. Our 100 year old houses won't seem old to you.
I know Ludlow. I've been through there. It's north of Londonderry. The Vermont Country Store is between the two towns
I'm in Hampton Township. It has rolling hills and a good school district, but you might think it's expensive. There are some older homes that aren't expensive though.
As for which is better, that's subjective. My personal opinion is Pennsylvania. It has a better school system and more opportunities. There are more things for children to do. We can enjoy the great outdoors here and have all that plus employment. Being raised with parents who have viable employment makes for a better place to grow up. In Vermont, so many people work multiple jobs to make ends meet. There's also more exposure to the arts and other things. A trip to the zoo or a museum isn't a vacation, but just an hour away from a surrounding county, and 20 minutes from where I live.
Most importantly for me, exposure to diverse ideas. I don't even mean race, just exposure to different ways of looking at things. Pittsburghers are very tolerant, individual freedom type people, who don't judge others, and are very accepting and friendly. My experience has been that many Vermonters don't like outsiders (flatlanders), nor anyone different than them, and are very fearful of change. That's not a mindset that will help children become successful in tomorrow's economy. (Funny you said you want to avoid clicky because Vermont is the clickiest place I've ever been.) I've also read that so many young people leave Vermont for employment. Growing up in PA makes it more likely that children will be able to stay nearby to work and raise families instead of moving away like they do in Vermont.
Well, I ask about the fire departments b/c my husband is 1st Lieutenant at Proctorsville VFD (One of the good ones) and I am ex-law enforcement so I am interested in Fire police. SO a good volunteer department is a high priority for us. But I know what you mean about some other VT departments.
Finding an older house, not in a development, in a rural area that is close (within 30 minutes is close to us) would be great. You're right - a 100 year old house is not that old from our point of view. Rolling fields would be great, but not if it puts us hell and gone from stuff for the kids. That is one of the main reasons we want to move there. I'd be happy with an acre for the kids, dogs, and our two pet chickens. But no burbs, or townhouses. Not with the kids. My husband would hate it.
VT is a great state. We have all been born and raised here, and have never lived out of state. My husband swore he would never, ever, ever, live anywhere else.... ever. But the cost of living here, the fact that I can't find a job that pays more than 9/hr, and the quality of the education/schools/things to do, has put us on the edge. There is just nothing keeping us here except my husband's job with the state. And it is not paying our bills. In PA, however, I can find 10 jobs to apply for at 50k a year. We just cannot afford to raise a family here anymore, and I can't help feeling like we are doing our kids a disservice by keeping them here. They deserve better schools, exposure, and opportunity.
And it is a clicky state. People here are reserved, not overly friendly, at least at first. We like to take your measure first. I avoid the Woodstock/Manchester type towns. Our town is pretty friendly over all. but it is tiny. 137 kids in the whole school. And there is the whole, friendly at first, then the clicky can start afterwards. Its amusing... to a point.
The flatlander thing, well, having grown up here, so close to a resort, they bring much of it on themselves. Certain plates bring certain expectations of behavior. It's not profiling so much as lifetime experience. If you put your toe in the water and find it is wet, you expect it to be wet next time. A bad analogy.
I find myself mostly neutral/indifferent when it comes to the tourists. The CT, MA, NY, and NJ plates, put you on alert. You can always count on two plates to be parked in the CLEARLY marked fire lane and the grocery store - next to the sign, no less, with their engines running on their huge rigs. It is the disrespect. It gets old fast.
On the flip side, down our road is a family from CT, with a big gas hog rig. I give them crap about it all the time. They are good people. Friendly, they drive slow on our road, don't hit my chickens, keep their dogs under control and say hello. When they are gone, we keep an eye on their house, and helped them after Irene. They pop by if they need eggs or a cuke form the garden. Nice people. So while there is the Flatty issue, it takes very little to change our mind on you if you are normal and pleasant. (And I can say there are a lot of unpleasant VTers too.)
So, anyway. Right now I am going to focus on a house within 30 minutes of Pittsburgh, maybe 40. Finding rentals is tough. S. Fayette would be nice if I could find a house, with a big big yard. But I don't think they'd appreciate my chickens I'll look at all those you mentioned as well. We are coming down the day school lets out on our way to NC. I might be down in April by myself to look around some. There have to be more homes for rent than I am finding. Needs to be a house too, we have 2 German Shepherds, one of which is a retired police dog. I will not get rid of them. I rather live in a tent.
Are there any neighborhoods/schools to just really stay away from? This is going to sound so snotty, but, its like Springfield, VT. Some very nice neighborhoods, some very not nice, more so than not. Tons of section 8. Its fine if you live on a nice street, but your kids will still go to school with their kids, and they will still have to walk down the not so nice street, They are still exposed to it. I think my example is something like 65% disadvantaged, maybe more. I'm just looking to avoid bad streets, neighborhoods, and any towns that are like Springfield. I've got to think of my kids.
If you want a plentiful selection of jobs, the Pittsburgh area of course is attractive.
If you still want rural living, I think the I-99 corridor from Williamsport up to Mansfield is great along with some of the counties along Route 6. That also puts you within a couple hours drive of Vermont if you still would like to visit.
The gas industry has rolled back quite a bit, but it's not going away and has helped keep the economy moving up here with more jobs available.
I really like Vermont, but it's not feasible to me right now, same as New Hampshire. Where I live now in Tioga County, I would not live anywhere else. I have everything I need, I kayak, bike ride on the incredible Pine Creek Trail, I snowshoe, I shoot guns. Williamsport is 50 minutes away for all the shopping I could want. If I feel I have to, The People's Republic of New York has Corning and Elmira within 40-60 minutes for more shopping.
The people up here are plenty friendly and welcoming unless you bring big snotty New Jersey or Nuu Yark lefty attitudes to town. It's a rural area and people don't want the big city here.
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I'll look at all those you mentioned as well. We are coming down the day school lets out on our way to NC. I might be down in April by myself to look around some. There have to be more homes for rent than I am finding. Needs to be a house too, we have 2 German Shepherds, one of which is a retired police dog. I will not get rid of them. I rather live in a tent. 
