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Old 07-22-2013, 10:58 AM
 
Location: The Flagship City and Vacation in the Paris of Appalachia
2,773 posts, read 3,833,268 times
Reputation: 2066

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Why doesn't the DOE conduct a completely random study that involves collecting unannounced samples from thousands of wells at various time intervals? It is like telling an athlete you are going to drug test him a month before the test.
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Old 07-22-2013, 11:06 AM
 
Location: The Flagship City and Vacation in the Paris of Appalachia
2,773 posts, read 3,833,268 times
Reputation: 2066
thecoalman

First, why would anyone be against a credit for renewable energy? I would rather have every American get a "green credit" as you call it than bail out Wall Street. Read this article about renewable energy and get back to me:

American Renewable Energy Is Powering the American Energy Transformation | Dennis V. McGinn

There are many studies out there that show the cost effectiveness of wind and solar. Wave power may be even more cost effective than either wind or solar, but it can also cause some navigational hazards since the surface is the best place to collect this energy and lining the shore with "electrical buoys" is problematic. As a final point here, the fossil fuel industry has received tax credits and government benefits for years, I don't see the issue with offering the same to renewable energy.
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Old 07-22-2013, 03:28 PM
 
41,815 posts, read 50,795,636 times
Reputation: 17862
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackstar13 View Post
The drillers are contaminating the water by simply using it.
Actually this may work out here becsue they are going to give them incentives to use mine run off. Kill two birds with one stone and even the environmentalists are getting behind it.





Quote:
Your argument about renewable energy is wrong, and I will not expand further in this post so that the post is not too long.
But of course, I'm just wrong. If you do decide to expand on it bring your A game because I know this topic as good as anybody.
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Old 07-22-2013, 03:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trackstar13 View Post
thecoalman

First, why would anyone be against a credit for renewable energy?
Because that credit drives up the cost of energy to the normal ratepayers. If you have the 30K plus to invest in solar panels that's great for you but the taxpayer is paying more becsue of the tax incentives and the ratepayers is paying more because of the green credit including low income people . It's the power distributor that has to pay those fees and they pass them onto the consumer.





Quote:
There are many studies out there that show the cost effectiveness of wind and solar.
I don't want studies I want real world examples with numbers. For example that wind farm in Mass. that was in the news a few years back has a 15 year contract to sell that power for something like 20 cents per kWh and 2.5% increase each year of the contract. It will be more than 30 cents by the time the contract expires. They are able to sell it at that price becsue of mandates, instead of green credit the power distributor is buying the power. That's besides whatever tax credits they got.

Note that is the wholesale rate, in comparison you can make electric with coal or natural gas for 4 cents per kWh. That wholesale rate is even higher than the retail national average of 11.

Like I said bring your A game.
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Old 07-22-2013, 03:47 PM
 
Location: The Flagship City and Vacation in the Paris of Appalachia
2,773 posts, read 3,833,268 times
Reputation: 2066
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Actually this may work out here becsue they are going to give them incentives to use mine run off. Kill two birds with one stone and even the environmentalists are getting behind it.





But of course, I'm just wrong. If you do decide to expand on it bring your A game because I know this topic as good as anybody.
You still didn't answer my question about how much water is used to frack a well. What happens if we stop the fossil fuel subsidies? Also, why is Germany so advanced when it comes to renewable energy? I thought USA was #1 all the way.

Three Reasons Why Global Fossil-Fuel Subsidies Will Not Last A Generation - Forbes

Towards the end of last year the International Energy Agency announced that subsidies for fossil fuels globally had risen by 30% to $523 billion.

In Germany where renewables are furthest advanced, 37% of renewable energy generation infrastructure is owned by households.
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Old 07-22-2013, 03:55 PM
 
41,815 posts, read 50,795,636 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trackstar13 View Post
You still didn't answer my question about how much water is used to frack a well.
I don't know the exact figure but it's lot, we also have a lot of water here in PA and they do set limits on what they can take.


Quote:
What happens if we stop the fossil fuel subsidies?
You're electric bill might go up a few cents for the month and it might cost you a fraction of a penny per gallon of gasoline more. Unlike renewables the fossil fuel industry does not rely on those subsidies. Matter of fact most of the subsidies for coal are for R&D and the one for oil is for bad wells. Exxon wouldn't even blink but some of the smaller drillers might....

http://www.eia.gov/analysis/requests...df/subsidy.pdf


Quote:
Also, why is Germany so advanced when it comes to renewable energy? I thought USA was #1 all the way.
Germany has the second highest electric rates in the western world just behind Denmark. You want to guess which country leads the world in wind mill manufacturing and has the highest percentage of electric generated by wind mills? FYI Germany just announced they will be building new coal plants.

Quote:
Germany -- Insane Or Just Plain Stupid? - Forbes

...... Germany is building about 25 clean coal-fired power plants to offset the loss of nuclear and address Germany’s admittedly “unaffordably expensive and unreliable” renewable portfolio (Der Spiegel). The German Green Party can now celebrate the opening of a 2,200 MW coal-fired power plant near Cologne. It started spewing out its annual, relatively clean, 13 million tons of CO2, and other nasties, so much lower than those older dirty coal plants that would have put out 15 million tons of CO2 for the same power output.
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Old 07-22-2013, 04:46 PM
 
Location: The Flagship City and Vacation in the Paris of Appalachia
2,773 posts, read 3,833,268 times
Reputation: 2066
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
I don't know the exact figure but it's lot, we also have a lot of water here in PA and they do set limits on what they can take.

You're electric bill might go up a few cents for the month and it might cost you a fraction of a penny per gallon of gasoline more. Unlike renewables the fossil fuel industry does not rely on those subsidies. Matter of fact most of the subsidies for coal are for R&D and the one for oil is for bad wells. Exxon wouldn't even blink but some of the smaller drillers might....

http://www.eia.gov/analysis/requests...df/subsidy.pdf


Germany has the second highest electric rates in the western world just behind Denmark. You want to guess which country leads the world in wind mill manufacturing and has the highest percentage of electric generated by wind mills? FYI Germany just announced they will be building new coal plants.
Yeah the natural gas industry is great at following the regulations like how much water to use LOL. 1 violation found at every 3 wells since 2009 in PA, just remember that when you think about regulations and the industry. You are also only talking about the subsidies that are out in the open for fossil fuels. Look at who runs the DOE and how much money he received from BP and other companies prior to his position. As a final point are you conceding that Germany has much better technology than the U.S.?

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Old 07-22-2013, 05:08 PM
 
41,815 posts, read 50,795,636 times
Reputation: 17862
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackstar13 View Post
1 violation found at every 3 wells since 2009 in PA,
Having been in business for many years I can tell you that no one can not operate ANY business in this country without violating the law no matter how hard you try, it simply cannot be done. The amount of violations is irrelevant, what is important is how many of these violations were major ones?

Quote:
As a final point are you conceding that Germany has much better technology than the U.S.?
What makes you think I said that? Because they are building new coal plants?


As for your graph what is this supposed to represent and what is the source?
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Old 07-23-2013, 08:46 AM
 
Location: The Flagship City and Vacation in the Paris of Appalachia
2,773 posts, read 3,833,268 times
Reputation: 2066
The graph represents the known tax subsidies for fossil fuels vs. renewable energy. Notice the huge difference and the fact that fossil fuels are highly subsidized. The source is the International Energy Agency and the graph represents the international tax subsidies (U.S. included).

To answer the question you won't answer, it takes 4.4 million gallons to frack one well.
How Much Water Does It Take to Frack a Well? | StateImpact Pennsylvania

You will also noticed that 63% of the water comes from the rivers and streams of the commonwealth. In other words that is a little more than 2.5 million gallons per well that is borrowed from the commonwealth. What is the value of that water? Well according to the EPA, water is about $2 per 1,000 gallons and given the numbers of wells already that is a pretty big hidden subsidy for the natural gas companies. Not to mention the fact that using this much water could increase the prices for everyone in the near future.

http://water.epa.gov/lawsregs/guidan..._dwsrf_web.pdf
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Old 07-23-2013, 03:06 PM
 
41,815 posts, read 50,795,636 times
Reputation: 17862
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackstar13 View Post
The graph represents the known tax subsidies for fossil fuels vs. renewable energy.
The graph is wrong, link to the source?

I'd strongly urge you to look over the these documents for accurate information from the EIA. In 2007 the subsidies for renewables was nearly 5 billion dollars and your graph represents 0?

2007: http://www.eia.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/s...df/execsum.pdf
2010: http://www.eia.gov/analysis/requests...df/subsidy.pdf


Quote:
Notice the huge difference and the fact that fossil fuels are highly subsidized. The source is the International Energy Agency and the graph represents the international tax subsidies (U.S. included).
Who is the International Energy Agency? The only reference I can find is some French agency. Note the bolded, what is that supposed to mean? You are either misinterpreting this graph or it's completely wrong.

Last edited by thecoalman; 07-23-2013 at 03:15 PM..
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