Toll the highways? (Philadelphia, Lancaster, Harrisburg: casinos, subsidized, tax)

[faeryedark]

Originally Posted by thecoalman

Get everyone off the Interstates and make it for the wealthy? If you want to get traffic off the Interstates start charging the trucks more as they are the ones that do the most damage to the roads and pay the least per pound. You may pay a little more for products but a lot of that freight is going to move to the rails where it belongs.

I agree. I'm sorry if it would hurt the truckers, but I'd be willing to pay a little more for products and they can always ship a lot of that by rail and then deliver it more locally

[faeryedark]

Originally Posted by greg42

I thought of the at fueling thing because having an annual bill would be a little crazy. Doing it piecemeal would be better, but you can't do monthly inspections or such. Retrofitting something to fuel pumps wouldn't be that huge, but it can't just be key in your odo reading, so something would have to be put on the car as well to capture the reading. Keep in mind many states don't have an annual inspection, so this could prevent them from having to institute one, as well as resolve the issue of dividing up the tax into manageable chunks. None of the ways are really ideal for collecting it; they all have their possible abuses.

What about people filling gas cans and such?

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by faeryedark

I agree. I'm sorry if it would hurt the truckers, but I'd be willing to pay a little more for products and they can always ship a lot of that by rail and then deliver it more locally

Nothing hurts truckers as long as they are quick to pass along the cost. It is the individual trucking companies that try to hold the line that are hurt by changes in tolls or taxation.

As far as shipping more by rail: Look at the condition of our railway. They do not seem to be expanding. Some of the old right-of-ways have been sold and developed and now would be impossible to again be rail lines.

Trucks are the life's blood of America. Without them our economic system would collapse. Sure; they are big, scary and dangerous. But America would not be the same without them. It is not possible to tax/toll trucking without hurting yourself.

[greg42]

Originally Posted by faeryedark

What about people filling gas cans and such?

Loophole, yes, if everyone were to start filling many cans and storing them. So that might wreck it. Ah well.

[pman]

Originally Posted by fisheye

Nothing hurts truckers as long as they are quick to pass along the cost. It is the individual trucking companies that try to hold the line that are hurt by changes in tolls or taxation.

As far as shipping more by rail: Look at the condition of our railway. They do not seem to be expanding. Some of the old right-of-ways have been sold and developed and now would be impossible to again be rail lines.

Trucks are the life's blood of America. Without them our economic system would collapse. Sure; they are big, scary and dangerous. But America would not be the same without them. It is not possible to tax/toll trucking without hurting yourself.

really?

One often hears about the parlous state of U.S. infrastructure....Yet there is one mode of transportation that has been flourishing even as the quality of the infrastructure controlled by the Federal Highway Administration and various local transit agencies has deteriorated, and that is rail freight. Betsy Morris of the Wall Street Journal describes the surge in private investment that has been transforming the rail freight industry, increasing rail capacity and increasingly outcompeting trucks as they become more reliable...

The Surge in Freight Rail Investment | National Review Online
trucks should pay their share of road maintenance costs. they aren't inherently better for "the blood of america." the important thing is to restore some semblance of rational pricing mechanisms to transportation.
did we need to build 422 as a highway when 76 was already overburdened? no but fixing 76 would have improved the road, building 422 made a handful of farmers and lots of developers tons of money...and those people donate to campaigns.

Originally Posted by faeryedark

Oh great, that would just mean more traffic on roads like Route 11 and 30

I've noticed that towns where 30 does not bypass them have much nicer town centers. anyway, it depends on the tolls. the reason the turnpike is so expensive is because it is required to support penndot. if the turnpike were supporting itself, it would be significantly cheaper...and a faster ride is worth money and you don't have to be rich to afford it. sitting in traffic also has its costs.

bus service may even return to chambers burg if the highways were tolled.

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by pman

really?

The Surge in Freight Rail Investment | National Review Online
trucks should pay their share of road maintenance costs. they aren't inherently better for "the blood of america." the important thing is to restore some semblance of rational pricing mechanisms to transportation.
did we need to build 422 as a highway when 76 was already overburdened? no but fixing 76 would have improved the road, building 422 made a handful of farmers and lots of developers tons of money...and those people donate to campaigns.



I've noticed that towns where 30 does not bypass them have much nicer town centers. anyway, it depends on the tolls. the reason the turnpike is so expensive is because it is required to support penndot. if the turnpike were supporting itself, it would be significantly cheaper...and a faster ride is worth money and you don't have to be rich to afford it. sitting in traffic also has its costs.

bus service may even return to chambers burg if the highways were tolled.

As far as the surge in rail investment: The railroad will never go door to door. As far as shipping freight over the rails; all of that could change with Panamax. We cannot see into the future and the future is near. By the way; the last push for high speed rail was totally political. Didn't Harry Reed want service to Las Vegas? I cannot picture us getting our act together. Thirty year planning means nothing except passing the buck to the next administration.

Now as far as your statement about PennDOT stealing funds from the Turnpike: That is one of the reasons I am not in favor of tolls. Government does what it wants with our money - we have no protection. I would just love to see accountability for our fuel taxes. Why not publish how much business collects and who they collect it from? How about a breakdown of where it all goes? Let the taxpayers/motorist look at the big picture.

Back in the 1990's we had a contractor repave five miles of I-80 through Tannersville. One month later potholes broke out in the new paving. I went to our local District Representative and told him that the contractor should be made to replace the pavement. I told him, that if it was his driveway or mine, we would have the contactor in court. He agreed. But one month later PennDOT was fixing the potholes. What we need is quality work that last a lifetime or at least several years. Throwing more money at a bad system helps nobody.

We both want great roads. We just disagree on how to accomplish that.

[North Beach Person]

Just to reinforce an earlier point about railroads. They started to abandon rail lines in the early 1980's (a result of rail deregulation along with the slow dissolving of tariffs) and many of those lines have been repurposed to Rails to Trails and other, more local, uses. Those will never return. The sad thing is that many areas which lost the trackage are now the center of the fracking boom.

I can name at least a dozen short-line (less than 100 miles of track) which are no longer in operation. Of course, they also lost their interchanges with ConRail (now CSX) so it really doesn't matter anymore.

[pman]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

Just to reinforce an earlier point about railroads. They started to abandon rail lines in the early 1980's (a result of rail deregulation along with the slow dissolving of tariffs) and many of those lines have been repurposed to Rails to Trails and other, more local, uses. Those will never return. The sad thing is that many areas which lost the trackage are now the center of the fracking boom.

I can name at least a dozen short-line (less than 100 miles of track) which are no longer in operation. Of course, they also lost their interchanges with ConRail (now CSX) so it really doesn't matter anymore.

some rail trails are abandoned, others are what is called rail banked, which means some entity retains the right to reinstate service. much was lost, sadly, in the 80' that probably shouldn't have been...or earlier, like the pennsy itself which may have lived on had deregulation come earlier.

Originally Posted by fisheye

As far as the surge in rail investment: The railroad will never go door to door. As far as shipping freight over the rails; all of that could change with Panamax. We cannot see into the future and the future is near.

it's easy to overlook the quiet revolution that freight rail is now undergoing. it isn't mean to go door to door but one train is hundreds of trucks. anyway, just meant to point out that rail is not seeing disinvestment.

Originally Posted by fisheye

Now as far as your statement about PennDOT stealing funds from the Turnpike: That is one of the reasons I am not in favor of tolls. Government does what it wants with our money - we have no protection. I would just love to see accountability for our fuel taxes. Why not publish how much business collects and who they collect it from? How about a breakdown of where it all goes? Let the taxpayers/motorist look at the big picture.

I don't see how accountability for fuel taxes is any more likely than accountability for tolls. penndot isn't stealing, the legislature is requiring it. it's part of Act 44. what's really frustrating is the that longer this goes on, the worse it's going to be. penndot's money problems are even with toll money from the turnpike which is unsustainable. there's no reason tolls can't be dedicated to roads and let's face it, what they're doing with tolls is exactly what they always do with fuel taxes, take from some and give to others.

Originally Posted by fisheye

We both want great roads. We just disagree on how to accomplish that.

true, but tolls have worked longer than either of us have been alive so there's no rational argument that they can't work. the only real argument it seems is that some people don't like them, for some reason not completely understood. I understand distrust of harrisburg. are you arguing that we should not bother with any more highway funding?

[North Beach Person]

What's being missed is that most, if not all, toll roads were designed that way from the beginning. I80 was not. Just the retrofitting, or closure, of those non-tolled exits would be astronomical. I don't know about other areas but a new exit was just built between Hazen (Brookville, really) and the first Dubois exit, near the already existing Reynoldsville exit. The new exit was built to serve the Dubois-Jefferson County Airport and cost several million dollars.

[pman]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

What's being missed is that most, if not all, toll roads were designed that way from the beginning. I80 was not. Just the retrofitting, or closure, of those non-tolled exits would be astronomical. I don't know about other areas but a new exit was just built between Hazen (Brookville, really) and the first Dubois exit, near the already existing Reynoldsville exit. The new exit was built to serve the Dubois-Jefferson County Airport and cost several million dollars.

what you mean by "non-tolled" exits? I was recently in Puerto rico and they had eliminated tollbooths entirely, tolls are charged as you're travelling on the road...at least two of the lanes allow you to pay at speed. I question whether retrofitting 80 astronomical.
the planning has already been done

Mr. Schoch said roughly ten percent of the total engineering and planning expenses went towards the actual design and development of the tolling system to be used on I-80. The plan was to use “Open Road Tolling,” which would require no toll booths or cash lanes. Cars would travel under electronic sensors which would trigger a camera to photograph the license plate and drivers would be billed for their toll.

Turnpike Spent $24 Million on Failed I-80 Tolling Project | PA Independent


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