High electric bills (Philadelphia, Harrisburg: new house, transfer, buy)

[fisheye]

I believe that the people complaining are the ones with electric heat - that switched providers to variable rate contracts. Many of us have oil or gas heat. Of course we still have high fuel bills because of the unseasonably cold weather. You can't win!

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by fisheye

I believe that the people complaining are the ones with electric heat - that switched providers to variable rate contracts. Many of us have oil or gas heat. Of course we still have high fuel bills because of the unseasonably cold weather. You can't win!

Our gas heat fuel bills aren't anywhere near what the electric heat fuel bills are.

[pman]

Not just households: Businesses, too, hit hard by electricity rate spikes - Local News - lancasteronline.com

[thecoalman]

Obama: My Plan Makes Electricity Rates Skyrocket - YouTube

Obama never got cap and trade but they did it through a backdoor with other regulations. Everybody thought NG was going to be savior but I've seen this movie before.

The higher electric rates are being driven by a higher reliance on NG for electric, overall increased demand on NG and a abnormally cold winter. If you are on a fixed rate you haven't been hit by it yet. The electric rates will settle but they will be higher. The only time NG was flirting with the cost of coal was back in the Spring of '12 when there was a huge surplus, that coincided with the closing of many coal plants.





In addition to this there is another major issue over the coming decades which is the infrastructure to support all this increased reliance. You can pile coal to the moon next to a power plant when the rates are low but there is only X amount of gas available through the pipelines. With so many people, busniess's and utilities using so much more of it that is putting a strain on a limited supply line.

[Dawne]

I know the issue with us was that our bills started out at 7 cents per kilowatt hour, crept up to 8, then 10, then 12, and the final bill was 22 cents per kilowatt hour. That's more than commercial rate!! I called our supplier and complained, and they refunded us enough to bring it to about 12 cents. I asked about future bills and I was assured they'd be between 8 and 9 cents, and indeed our next bill was just over 8 cents per kilowatt hour. Believe me, I'll keep a close eye on this and probably switch back to PPL in the near future. We have oil hot water heat in our house, but we did add one of those little electric heaters that doesn't get hot to the touch, and we finished our basement and have electric heat down there, so I totally expected our bill to go up, but I did NOT expect the amount per kilowatt hour to go up. That was ridiculous!

[pman]

so youre saying coal plants make excellent peak demand relievers but theyre being shut down. that makes a lot of sense. seems like some of the money spent on wars could have been spent on cleaner coal

[thecoalman]

The "clean coal" coal tech is a mischaracterization becsue what they are really talking about is carbon capture, it's a greenhouse gas. The six most common air pollutants have been reduced by 67% since the 80's despite increased population, production etc.

If you take the recent coal plant closures they were older plants and the upgrades to meet the new mercury rules made it unfeasible to retrofit. Those regulations will reduce the mercury deposition rates in the US anywhere from 1% to 10% resulting in the average IQ increasing 2/1000 of one point. Does that make sense?

With the carbon caps even NG plants built in the early part of the last decade could not meet those requirements. These caps will not be retroactive but due to uncertainly over where these regulations are heading the utilities are turning to NG. The only solution for a new coal plant is carbon capture and that is untested, unavailable and has a whole slew of issues such as how you manage to store CO2 forever. Such facilities will also need indemnification just like the nuke plants. That's before you even get into what this all going to cost. If the assault on coal continues it's questionable if any new coal plants will be built in the future.

[pman]

electric heat never made any sense. what has changed is that oil heat increasingly doesn't make sense. natural gas heat is generally less expensive than either (though afaik modern versions of radiant heat are the most efficient). I know when the development I grew up in was built, there were rules against building homes with gas heat (and so we had electric, though my parents later converted it to gas which was far cheaper). still, I tend to agree that environmental regulations have past the point of diminishing returns.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by Dawne

I know the issue with us was that our bills started out at 7 cents per kilowatt hour, crept up to 8, then 10, then 12, and the final bill was 22 cents per kilowatt hour. That's more than commercial rate!! I called our supplier and complained, and they refunded us enough to bring it to about 12 cents. I asked about future bills and I was assured they'd be between 8 and 9 cents, and indeed our next bill was just over 8 cents per kilowatt hour. Believe me, I'll keep a close eye on this and probably switch back to PPL in the near future. We have oil hot water heat in our house, but we did add one of those little electric heaters that doesn't get hot to the touch, and we finished our basement and have electric heat down there, so I totally expected our bill to go up, but I did NOT expect the amount per kilowatt hour to go up. That was ridiculous!

Why take their word for your rate staying at 8 cents? Why not switch to a fixed rate supplier?

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by pman

electric heat never made any sense. what has changed is that oil heat increasingly doesn't make sense. natural gas heat is generally less expensive than either (though afaik modern versions of radiant heat are the most efficient).

Any electric heat is 100% efficient at least as far as the home is concerned. You get 3,412 BTU's per kWh and that never changes whether it's regular baseboard, hair dryer, incandescent bulb or some overpriced space heater advertised on TV.

Efficiencies are based on the percentage of input BTU's that are realized. You lose heat out a chimney with coal, oil, gas and wood so they range from 50% to 9X% efficient. The odd ball is heat pumps, they use electric but the fuel is the heat in the air or the ground. Those efficiencies are based on what you would have spent using regular electric, that's why you get efficiency ratings that exceed 100%. Those will be variable based on the outside air temperature.

Beyond that you need to look at the big picture, with the plant and grid inefficiencies it may only be 30% to 40% with electric. Those considerations need to be made for any fuel though.

I tend to agree that environmental regulations have past the point of diminishing returns.

See that, we can agree on something. The "law of diminishing returns" is kicking in. The analogy I like to use is if everyone was driving around in a car from NASCAR fatalities and injuries in car accidents would plummet, that is pointless if no one can afford to buy the car. Environmental regulations need to be practical and sane, the benefits need to outweigh the costs.