Can Actively Attracting Immigrants Help Cities Like Erie Break the Population Death Spiral? (Philadelphia: 2013, student loan)

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by trackstar13

fisheye

I see your argument, but I think the major issue we have in rust belt cities like Erie is that we have a city built with infrastructure and space for 150,000+ people and the city is soon about to drop below 100,000 in population. It is not really growth for the sake of growth, but a need to fill the space that has been vacated over the years or the remaining tax base will continue to dwindle and the city/area will suffer more issues. In terms of assimilation, this is another issue altogether and I will point out that many early immigrants to the U.S. did not make much of an effort to assimilate either. This is really not a new issue and the U.S. has always been a melting pot of different cultures. Also, the U.S. does not have a national language and some states like Maine and Louisiana even have a significant number of French speakers while others like Florida have a large number of Spanish speakers.

Here is the link to the US census Population Clock: Population Clock. While the numbers for Erie might be going down; the net numbers for the US are going up. So the question is: Why is Erie loosing and the rest of the Country gaining? This is not about throwing more people into the fray; it is about why people cannot live in Erie? If Erie had the jobs/housing/ taxes to encourage growth; it would be growing (naturally).

Right now we are lost as a Nation - we have no direction. We have not had any leaders for many years with foresight. We were better off as an industrial empire that wanted to supply goods to the world. Technology was going to save us; but is turning into the final nail in our coffin. Robotics will replace us with no means to make any living - if outsourcing and immigration does not do it first.

I am not saying that I am against immigration; almost all of us have immigrated or are related to immigrants. It is just that we keep looking to the rest of the world to solve the problems that we have no answers for.

[pman]

Actually back in the heyday of European immigration there was plenty of advertising going on by states, cities, and especially companies...many promised conditions that were not what immigrants found. Large numbers of Italians actually returned to their country. Lots of people immigrate to ny because people know it and have friends of family there. It's not fair to assume anyone has heard of erie in another country so advertising is probably necessary. In philadelphia immigrants have turned some decrepit places around. It isn't a silver bullet but it could help...and it could be advertising to immigrants who are already here in dc or ny, etc. AL dia had an article on immigration in philadelphia and people preferred philadelphia because of its Barrios (neighborhoods) which they said were more tight knit and presumably more like home.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by trackstar13

Immigrants are very resourceful and the story I listened to today mentioned that many of these immigrants were creating their own jobs and one specific example that they gave was an immigrant owned trucking company in Dayton that is expanding rapidly.

Are the bulk of them going to be people creating business's/skilled or are they going to be low skilled individuals?

There is only so many low skilled jobs available and it isn't low skilled people moving out. You're going to end up driving down the wages for what jobs their are.

[pman]

Originally Posted by thecoalman

Are the bulk of them going to be people creating business's/skilled or are they going to be low skilled individuals?There is only so many low skilled jobs available and it isn't low skilled people moving out. You're going to end up driving down the wages for what jobs their are.

Eh. Low skilled mexican immigrants have moved into neighborhoods low skilled Americans left and turned them around. Many high skilled immigrants also come to this country. It sounds like erie needs people whether they are doctors or restaurant owners. Blight and depopulation cost money as does the repercussions of having a stagnant population base.

[trackstar13]

Originally Posted by fisheye

Here is the link to the US census Population Clock: Population Clock. While the numbers for Erie might be going down; the net numbers for the US are going up. So the question is: Why is Erie loosing and the rest of the Country gaining? This is not about throwing more people into the fray; it is about why people cannot live in Erie? If Erie had the jobs/housing/ taxes to encourage growth; it would be growing (naturally).

Great questions and I think it is not just Erie, but many areas of western PA and the rust belt that are losing population. Pittsburgh seems to be the only bright light with some recent small gains in population and it was nice to hear about Dayton potentially starting to make a comeback. I don't have the answer as to why Erie continues to lose population while other areas are growing, but one major factor is the tax situation that continues to get worse as people leave the city proper. Erie county as a whole is still slightly shrinking, but this is mainly due to an elderly population that is dying off faster than people are moving in or having children. The city itself continues to lose population and as this happens property taxes continue to go up and while I can afford to pay them there are many people who cannot and stay within the Erie area, but leave the city. I wish the city would offer more residential tax incentives that last long term so that people move into the area and as the population increases everyone's taxes could stay the same or be lowered. It is a simple numbers game and with revenue decreasing, but costs staying the same or increasing Erie simply needs more residents to continue to provide the same services and hopefully improve in the future.

[trackstar13]

Originally Posted by thecoalman

Are the bulk of them going to be people creating business's/skilled or are they going to be low skilled individuals?

There is only so many low skilled jobs available and it isn't low skilled people moving out. You're going to end up driving down the wages for what jobs their are.

In the case of Dayton I believe it is mainly low skilled immigrants moving in to the area, but they can and are being trained to do jobs that many Americans simply are no longer interested in doing. Many of these jobs are moderately skilled manufacturing jobs that are hard work and as I currently work at a college I have been asking many college students if they are interested in any of these jobs part time and they simply have no interest. For example, I have had two plastics manufacturing companies contact me in the past month with jobs available for college students that pay between $10-$13 per hour and all training is paid for by the company and the only stipulation is that they have to pass a drug test and criminal background check. I have had zero students respond to these job opportunities and the owners of these businesses have been struggling to get any applicants that meet the criteria. In other words, there are not many people who want to work hard and can pass a drug test and criminal background check. People complain about a lack of jobs, but I have seen firsthand that people do not want to work and this in my opinion is the gap that immigrants can fill because they are willing to work hard and do whatever it takes to provide for their families.

[trackstar13]

Originally Posted by pman

Eh. Low skilled mexican immigrants have moved into neighborhoods low skilled Americans left and turned them around. Many high skilled immigrants also come to this country. It sounds like erie needs people whether they are doctors or restaurant owners. Blight and depopulation cost money as does the repercussions of having a stagnant population base.

Yes I completely agree that immigrants can transform a neighborhood and that blight and depopulation have significant costs for residents of an area. Erie is still the center of the metro and while shopping and dining has moved to Millcreek and Summit Townships, many of the public services and entertainment opportunities are still located within the city limits and as people continue to move further and further away from the city it just makes things more expensive for everyone. For instance, the Erie Water Works charges Erie customers much more for water and sewer services than the residents of Millcreek who use the same services, but pay their township who purchases water from the city. These entities are currently involved in a lawsuit and Erie Water Works is trying to takeover the Millcreek Water Authority and the only reason this conflict exists is because both entities have to work together because there are now so many residents in Millcreek that Erie has too much water and Millcreek can't treat enough of it without significantly raising taxes or water prices. I have no problem with people living in the suburban and rural areas, but if the city continues to lose population and get to the point where it is half or a third of the size it used to be, this will create major problems for the entire area. As a final point, another reason I think immigration may be the answer is because the people who have fled the city of Erie and moved to the suburbs or rural areas are probably not moving back so it is only logical to try and attract people from outside the area to occupy the vacant areas of the city that are available.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by trackstar13

but they can and are being trained to do jobs that many Americans simply are no longer interested in doing.

The reason they don't want those jobs is because the wages have been driven down by cheap overseas labor and illegal/legal immigrants in this country. Someone has to pick the tomatoes and if you don't have a population willing to work for nothing the wages necessarily rise until you do have someone to pick them. It's also detrimental to other jobs, cheap labor stifles innovation and technology.

My Cousin just had a roof put on and the lowest bid he got was 1/2 the rest of them. The guy had all Mexicans working for him. I don't know if they were legal or illegal. That's great for my Cousin but ultimately it's a race to the bottom.

[trackstar13]

Originally Posted by thecoalman

The reason they don't want those jobs is because the wages have been driven down by cheap overseas labor and illegal/legal immigrants in this country. Someone has to pick the tomatoes and if you don't have a population willing to work for nothing the wages necessarily rise until you do have someone to pick them. It's also detrimental to other jobs, cheap labor stifles innovation and technology.

My Cousin just had a roof put on and the lowest bid he got was 1/2 the rest of them. The guy had all Mexicans working for him. I don't know if they were legal or illegal. That's great for my Cousin but ultimately it's a race to the bottom.

I think it is partially due to the wages being driven down, but also a lack of work ethic or desire to do tough labor oriented jobs unless the pay is very high. For instance, I have seen GE Transportation in Erie post relatively low skilled, labor intensive jobs like painting the trains or low level assembly and because these jobs pay very high they get many applications. Similar jobs with small, local manufacturers usually pay less than half as much as GE and they usually have trouble even getting enough applications. I understand the race to the bottom argument, but when did it become necessary to pay people a high wage for low or moderately skilled work? Your example of picking tomatoes makes sense and in Erie grapes are the main crop and I believe a combination of automation and using cheap labor has influenced the pay in that industry. I see both sides of the argument and my stance is firmly in the middle where I believe that you can't pay someone $30+ per hour for a low to moderately skilled job and remain competitive, but you also can't pay them minimum wage. Also, I am not sure about your area, but I have seen many roofers in Erie using Amish labor.

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by trackstar13

In the case of Dayton I believe it is mainly low skilled immigrants moving in to the area, but they can and are being trained to do jobs that many Americans simply are no longer interested in doing. Many of these jobs are moderately skilled manufacturing jobs that are hard work and as I currently work at a college I have been asking many college students if they are interested in any of these jobs part time and they simply have no interest. For example, I have had two plastics manufacturing companies contact me in the past month with jobs available for college students that pay between $10-$13 per hour and all training is paid for by the company and the only stipulation is that they have to pass a drug test and criminal background check. I have had zero students respond to these job opportunities and the owners of these businesses have been struggling to get any applicants that meet the criteria. In other words, there are not many people who want to work hard and can pass a drug test and criminal background check. People complain about a lack of jobs, but I have seen firsthand that people do not want to work and this in my opinion is the gap that immigrants can fill because they are willing to work hard and do whatever it takes to provide for their families.

Statements like that get me angry. Thirty years ago our politicians proclaimed us the hardest working/most productive workers in the world. So why do the people that we elect to office now turn their noses up to the people that put them in office?

If you ask me one of the biggest problems is the imbalance between the private sector and public sector: Overpaid Federal Workers | Downsizing the Federal Government. Jobs and pay in the private sector continue to fall while our government is oblivious to current economic conditions. Look at what public pensions have done to destroy any hopes for a balance budget! If this was in the private sector; the money would simply disappear as they filed bankruptcy. But government relies on the decaying private sector to still support their lifestyle - it isn't fair.

Now as far as your $10 to $13/hr. jobs; have you shopped for groceries in the last year? In, especially, the last year our groceries have increased 150%. Yes fuel is down (which doesn't make that much sense since it was always given for a reason behind higher food prices). I presume that much of the higher food prices come from the draught in the Southwest? I just do not believe our government when they report inflation figures; they don't live in the 'real' world. I do know that it must be almost impossible for any young college student to pay student loans, insurance, car, housing, food, taxes and entertainment on those figures.

Now going back to my opening paragraph on why we are no longer deemed productive: One of my first jobs, back in the early 1970's, was unloading boxcars. Myself and a coworker would unload three a day with 800X100 pound bags of chemicals on the floor - there were no "slip-pallets" in the early 1970's. So I would lift 120,000 pounds each day with my back in temperatures that rose well over 100 degrees in the summer - boxcars are hot with the sun baking down. By the way; I was making $13/hour back then - forty years ago. I was proud of the work that I could physically do; I am still proud now of the work I get accomplished even at 68 years old. I have worked with great American workers and great immigrant workers - but I have worked with many lazy ones, both American and immigrant. I just feel really betrayed by the people we put in office!

PS You tell me when you ever lifted 120,000 pounds in one day!