S. Central PA, is it really so intolerant?? (Lancaster, Harrisburg: section 8, crime)

[Orion17]

I live in york county solancogirl.

I was asking which newspaper you were refering to. If it is one of those reputable ones then great.

But the point still remains that you and Artie See have taken the position that 'Many' and 'a several dozen' think this way and that there are certain people who write to the newspapers.

But as others who are not of european descent have stated that they do not see Lancaster County as the horribly bigoted area that you two have. And when someone paints a whole area as bigoted I think it is irresponsible.

[Orion17]

Originally Posted by Artie See

Excellent. After you've spent several weeks living in suburban or rural Lancaster County, please let us all know what you've learned.

As for me, I've not sat around with my eyes and ears closed for the last 53+ years.

I did spend several weeks (6) living in Mountville and currently visit my in-laws there once a week and go shopping to the mall and stores and such for over two years now. I have not seen any more bigotry than the other areas I have lived in my life.

Maybe your 53 years in the county keeping your eyes and ears open could speak to whether you feel it is getting better? Granted I dont have the perspective you do, do you really suggest that someone not move there if they are not white?

I guess the real question is this person who posted the question wanted to know if they should move to the area. If you think these racist and bigoted ideas are bad, then why would you want to keep the status quo and keep the population as homogeneous as possible? Assuming it is not your personal quest to enlighten people, isn't the best way to reduce or remove these ideals is to change the make up of the population? I mean 60 years ago there were separate bathroom and water fountains. Had the law not been created to integrate, where would we be today? Sometimes it is good to take a stand.

My main point is that I don't tell people not to move to an area or do something because of small minded people. Every persons opinion should be taken with a grain of salt, and mine included.

[Artie See]

Originally Posted by Orion17

Granted I dont have the perspective you do, do you really suggest that someone not move there if they are not white?

Yes, it is getting better, especially in Lancaster City.

The problem lies in the areas most heavily populated by the people who have resided in Lancaster County the longest. As more and more people move into Lancaster County, the heavy Amish/Mennonite influence is becoming diluted in the fastest growing areas.

[Gil3]

Originally Posted by S.Joel

I did a search yesterday about race relations in the area. I found a thread that contained comment after comment about the intolerance, unfriendliness(to outsiders), and outright racism prevelant in S. Central PA. Does this seem to be a fair estimation of the region? I am quite concerned as my family is considering relocating to the Harrisburg area and are mainly interested in areas that are a bit more rural. My husband and 2 kids are bi-racial. We certainly do not want to end up in an area with archaic thinking. I don't want to subject our children to that. I really hope some of you on the forum have some insights for me. If indeed the area is still that potentially racist we may need to keep looking. Your thoughts are anxiously awaited and appreciated whatever they may be.(And a special thanks to CHIP72 for all your input on my previous post) S.

Sjoel and others, this is my first post here, so hello!

I lived in the York area from 1988-2000, then moved to the Washington, DC area. I have just returned to York permanently, save for a monthly trip back to York here and there.

I will say that over the last 20 years, the area has changed considerably for the better in terms of tolerance of different ethnic groups and so-called "outsiders". That is such a negative and absolute term, because as long as one is living in and contributing to the community, then they are indeed part of that community. This term is mainly directed at the large Hispanic population and those who have moved here from Baltimore and other parts of Maryland. I will go on a limb and say the influx of Marylanders has definitely helped to propell growth and bring in a new mix of ideas and thinking. I also feel that the growing Hispanic population has also added remarkably to the area's diversity and culture.

I will say that things are not perfect, and there are pockets of hate and intolerance and people who are still resistant to any positive change and those not in alignment with their own thinking. However, I feel that the Central Pa. region, York in particular is moving forward. Is there work to be done? Of course there is. I will say I am impressed by the progress I have witnessed over that last 20 years I have both lived and visited here.

What I have observed in and around York, there are a lot of mixed couples and bi-racial children (I am in a said relationship myself) and my GF and I have had no problems. I really don't care if someone is against our relationship for their own personal reasons. That's their right. However, once they become openly hostile and threatening, then the line has been crossed. Overall, though, I have met some great people here and as one poster mentioned earlier, it's all on how you treat others and self-presentation. I have learned that respect is the one atribute we can give even though we may not be in agreement, let alone like each other.

In my last place of residence here in York, I had a neighbor who was pretty rough looking and until you got to know him, he looked very intimidating. Sort of like a "ZZ TOP" looking guy who drank a litte here and there. I got to know him over time and I will say he was one of the best neighbors and nicest people I have had met anywhere, and he would help anyone who needed it. My own personal lesson from this was not to judge people, because I know first hand what it's like to be judged before you are even given an opportunity to prove yourself. Granted, not everyone is going to be friendly and receptive here, but overall, I think it's still a great place to live.

I do understand your concern for yourself and family. However, this area is growing by leaps and bounds, so if you have decided on the area, good luck!

[solancogirl]

Originally Posted by Orion17

I live in york county solancogirl.

I was asking which newspaper you were refering to. If it is one of those reputable ones then great.

But the point still remains that you and Artie See have taken the position that 'Many' and 'a several dozen' think this way and that there are certain people who write to the newspapers.

But as others who are not of european descent have stated that they do not see Lancaster County as the horribly bigoted area that you two have. And when someone paints a whole area as bigoted I think it is irresponsible.

Yes it is the large papers, but why don't you just pick up one of your own and see who introduced the bill to ban gay marriage.

No I think what is irresponsible is to act like living here is like the commercials. People uproot their whole lives to move to Lancaster based on the view they got from People Magazine when the Amish Shootings took place or the Tourist Bureau. Lancaster County can be an excellent place to live but it can also be hard for many to adapt too and incredibly lonely for newbies. And by-the-way, you don't have to be a minority just have "no roots" in Lancaster County and that can earn the same kind of treatment.

The point is there are tolerant areas in Lancaster just like any place else, but there areas here and they are large areas that will treat minorities or transplants of any origin (we are 88% white, 3% Hispanic, 7% Black and 2% other) like they are invisible or worse. So if you want to argue fine, I only live here what would Artie or I know?

Mountville is practically to York County, is in West Hempfield Township and near Columbia. Mountville does not qualify as rural. From Mountville you are 15 minutes to the mall. Just for everyone here to know I nor Artie I am sure, are trying to say--hey go to the mall be not white and you will be treated terribly. 6 weeks visiting in a non-rural area and actually living here are 2 different things. Come on down to the Southern End and spend 6 weeks.

People won't hurt you but they aren't going to help you either. You know the idea of being a ground breaker and breaking all these barriers is great, but intolerance at many levels is everywhere and if you want to live like that fine.

In the end, it has to do with expectations. That's all I'm saying. I have had several neighbors who have been profoundly disappointed after moving here and openly expressed that. I have also seen people head for the hills after living here a short time. People the fastest way to learn about Lancaster County is this way--
LancasterOnline.com: TalkBack -> News
That's the link to the talk back section for the Lancaster Newspapers.

[jfeagin]

Now I am not so sure... I even posted here earlier that I have never had a problem. We are an inter-racial couple (white and latina). Well I went to a local establishment Saturday evening with my wife and mother-in-law (visiting from Brazil). Our order was taken for something that shouldn't take 10 minutes to make, other people where getting their orders us... well after 20 minutes or so the waitress is there sitting and chatting with friends... it was late, I just got back from a business trip in Ethiopia and I didn't want to make a scene so we just left. Waitress looked at us leaving and continued chatting , laughing with friends... We are going back again sometime this week just to see if it happens again, if it does......

Yes, it could be just a crappy and lazy waitress, hopefully it just is, but it gives you a better feeling of what it feels like to be discriminated against. It made me appreciate Obama's speech yesterday...

John

[Gil3]

Originally Posted by jfeagin

Now I am not so sure... I even posted here earlier that I have never had a problem. We are an inter-racial couple (white and latina). Well I went to a local establishment Saturday evening with my wife and mother-in-law (visiting from Brazil). Our order was taken for something that shouldn't take 10 minutes to make, other people where getting their orders us... well after 20 minutes or so the waitress is there sitting and chatting with friends... it was late, I just got back from a business trip in Ethiopia and I didn't want to make a scene so we just left. Waitress looked at us leaving and continued chatting , laughing with friends... We are going back again sometime this week just to see if it happens again, if it does......

Yes, it could be just a crappy and lazy waitress, hopefully it just is, but it gives you a better feeling of what it feels like to be discriminated against. It made me appreciate Obama's speech yesterday...

John

Jfeagin or John..I am in an interracial relationship myself (She is white/I'm black) and we have had bad service before. I'm sure everyone does at some point. However, It just appears to me from my own personal perspective that you were the possible recipient of a bad waitress and not discrimination. I will say, though..If you felt you were treated badly, I would have spoken with a manager instead of just walking out without attempting to address the problem. If you do intend to return, I would just explain to them what happened firmly, but politely. I am almost sure there will be a positive resolution, as no manager or owner wants to lose a customer. I will even go on a limb and say most, if not all places don't care what color you or your spouse is. As long as your money is green and legitimate, that's all that matters.

From my own dinning experiences, there have been times when others do get their food before another table even though my entree may not take as long to prepare. Sometimes the server may make a mistake and inadvertently wait on another table before us, even though i may be the only black or person of color in the establishment. Sure..I can interpret it as them being "biased" against me or my spouse, but I simply don't. It happens, and the server is sincerely appologetic. I also realize that most Saturdays, especially in the evening hours, things can get pretty chaotic and mistakes can and will be made.

There was an instance recently where we had to summon the manager because of a problem with our order and slow service. The situation was handled calmly and politely. The manager was not only sorry about what happened, but took half of our bill ($25) off and got a complimentary dessert to boot. I also told him we would return in the future and he was pleased. These discrepancies are just the glitches that are inevitable when dinning out. If I were to interpret these situations and mixups as discrimnation, I would never eat out again.

Sometimes when we look for things to go wrong or feel we have been slighted, it's easy to say people are being discriminatory towards us/me and that may not be the case at all. We may percieve a situation as one thing, when it can be the total opposite. Does discrimination stilll exist? Of course it does, both covert and blatant and I denounce it in all forms. I would be a fool to say it doesn't still occur. However, there are also people who walk around with a chip on their shoulder (not you per se) and look for things to complain about and feel the whole world is against them for some reason or the other.

No disrespect here towards you at all.

[jfeagin]

Originally Posted by Gil3

Jfeagin or John..I am in an interracial relationship myself (She is white/I'm black) and we have had bad service before. I'm sure everyone does at some point. However, It just appears to me from my own personal perspective that you were the possible recipient of a bad waitress and not discrimination. I will say, though..If you felt you were treated badly, I would have spoken with a manager instead of just walking out without attempting to address the problem. If you do intend to return, I would just explain to them what happened firmly, but politely. I am almost sure there will be a positive resolution, as no manager or owner wants to lose a customer. I will even go on a limb and say most, if not all places don't care what color you or your spouse is. As long as your money is green and legitimate, that's all that matters.

From my own dinning experiences, there have been times when others do get their food before another table even though my entree may not take as long to prepare. Sometimes the server may make a mistake and inadvertently wait on another table before us, even though i may be the only black or person of color in the establishment. Sure..I can interpret it as them being "biased" against me or my spouse, but I simply don't. It happens, and the server is sincerely appologetic. I also realize that most Saturdays, especially in the evening hours, things can get pretty chaotic and mistakes can and will be made.

There was an instance recently where we had to summon the manager because of a problem with our order and slow service. The situation was handled calmly and politely. The manager was not only sorry about what happened, but took half of our bill ($25) off and got a complimentary dessert to boot. I also told him we would return in the future and he was pleased. These discrepancies are just the glitches that are inevitable when dinning out. If I were to interpret these situations and mixups as discrimnation, I would never eat out again.

Sometimes when we look for things to go wrong or feel we have been slighted, it's easy to say people are being discriminatory towards us/me and that may not be the case at all. We may percieve a situation as one thing, when it can be the total opposite. Does discrimination stilll exist? Of course it does, both covert and blatant and I denounce it in all forms. I would be a fool to say it doesn't still occur. However, there are also people who walk around with a chip on their shoulder (not you per se) and look for things to complain about and feel the whole world is against them for some reason or the other.

No disrespect here towards you at all.

Oh, I agree with you and I do think it was probably just bad service (strangely, I hope it was bad service). It was just kind of weird to have the waitress see us walk out and just sit there and laugh and joke around with friends. She wasn't a kid either but was probably 40 something. It did make me think about how it feels to have to deal with discrimination almost on a daily manner. I would have addressed it then and there but after 27.5 hours en route from Addis Ababa ... well, I really wasn't in a mood to deal, just wanted to get something to eat.

John

[CocalicoSprings]

....30 years ago when I moved into the area they (german descendents with Mennonite or Amish heritage) even snubbed their noses at us Italians. They called me that "EYE-TALLION"
Today it is totally different. You will be fine.

[sunshineann]

Harrisburg will be fine for you. If you would like a more rural area you might want to try the Mechanicsburg, Carlisle area as well. You shouldnt have any problems in those areas. I do agree with the others, stay away from York, that place is getting worse, and run down. As far as unfriendliness, you have that anywhere. I moved away from Pa 5 years ago to Missouri, and i absolute hate it. I cant get a job out here because they tell me im over qualified and that they will hire locals before "outsiders" In Pa. you have so many options as far as work, schooling, and activities. Hope this helps you.