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Old 01-23-2021, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia
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These two cities are very similar.

The metro population size is nearly the same (Harrisburg is only slightly larger).

The GDP is nearly the same (Harrisburg only slightly larger).

But Lancaster is pulling ahead measurably in terms of amenities and built environment.

Lancaster has the more vibrant and overall much nicer downtown.

Lancaster has more amenities in the retail form: An Apple Store, A Whole Foods, A West Elm, Nordstrom, etc.

Lancaster also has a much better built environment and respect for good quality architecture that actually looks nice for its new development projects.

Lancaster overall just seems to be further along, and in many aspects it reminds me of an extension of the affluent Chester County. The most mind boggling aspect is though, Harrisburg actually has a higher wealth per capita.


What are thoughts on why these two cities/metros, which are only about 40 minutes from each other, are developing so differently??


The Harrisburg Metro seems to continue to be stuck in the past, with a poor vision for its planned development and economic future, little to no cohesive development and overall is kind of just walking along. Most of its new built development looks lack luster (minus a few projects by Charter homes).
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Old 01-23-2021, 09:32 PM
 
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I am a pretty new resident to Lancaster, moved here last summer. I haven't been to Harrisburg yet. Do you think the difference in the higher wealth per capita may have something to do with it being the state capital?
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Old 01-23-2021, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Born + raised SF Bay; Tyler, TX now WNY
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I should know better given that I drove trucks in the area quite a bit. I always considered them to more or less be joined in some way.

Then again, where I am, Tyler and Longview are about as close and similarly sized, but don’t share much.
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Old 01-24-2021, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Center City Philadelphia
443 posts, read 404,393 times
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I'm a Harrisburg booster but I do think Lancaster's downtown feels farther along than Harrisburg. Lancaster also never saw the same amount of disinvestment as Harrisburg and its population never collapsed like Harrisburg. So shameful that the state let its capital city decline the way it did.

That being said, Harrisburg definitely feels like a larger city and metro area. Downtown Harrisburg, while not quite as vibrant with its arts scene as downtown Lancaster, feels like a more medium-sized city. However, while downtown Harrisburg lacks the arts scene of Lancaster, visit on a weekday when office workers are back and it feels even more vibrant than Lancaster (and has a good restaurant scene as well). And Harrisburg has a much more scenic location than Lancaster (I realize that's subjective). Its location along a beautiful wide river with mountains in the background is really a huge advantage for those who appreciate that and want outdoor activities like boating, biking, and kayaking. Similarly, I would argue Harrisburg has a better and more accessible park system for its residents. I lived in Harrisburg for a time and really miss walks along the river and biking on the greenbelt. Lancaster just doesn't have anything like that. Another note on the "size" is that Lancaster feels like more of a one note town with a vibrant downtown but otherwise all residential neighborhoods. Harrisburg has more nodes of activity like downtown, midtown, Allison Hill (which itself has multiple commercial corridors), etc.

Downtown Harrisburg has a way to go but there is a really exciting energy in midtown that feels like it could be the next Lancaster in a few years. Third street is finally redeveloping after years of neglect and Lancaster has nothing like Millworks (what a treasure!). FWIW, midtown Harrisburg is an order of magnitude cheaper than downtown Lancaster! So it's probably a good time to invest or buy.

Politically, the Harrisburg area and its immediate suburbs are definitely a little bluer than Lancaster, so there's that for people that care. Lancaster has seen some shifts in that direction but it's behind Harrisburg.
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Old 01-24-2021, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessie Mitchell View Post
I am a pretty new resident to Lancaster, moved here last summer. I haven't been to Harrisburg yet. Do you think the difference in the higher wealth per capita may have something to do with it being the state capital?

I highly recommend checking out Harrisburg in the spring/summer!

It is a very pretty city. It has a beautiful riverfront park. And the state capitol is absolutely worth a tour. It is a palace of art.

Midtown also has some great parts.

Where did you move from to Lancaster?

Both cities area great. But Lancaster is a bit further along, in terms of its urban renewal and amenities.

Harrisburg does have the higher GDP and a slightly higher wealth per capita. And yes you can attribute it to the state government being there and also Penn State has both its Medical School and Law School in the Harrisburg metro, so the area has a fair amount of Lawyers and Doctors.

This is honestly why I am slightly surprised that Lancaster has more amenities and has come further along than Harrisburg. Because on paper, Harrisburg has the more robust economy.
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Old 01-24-2021, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia
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Originally Posted by bridge12 View Post
I'm a Harrisburg booster but I do think Lancaster's downtown feels farther along than Harrisburg. Lancaster also never saw the same amount of disinvestment as Harrisburg and its population never collapsed like Harrisburg. So shameful that the state let its capital city decline the way it did.

That being said, Harrisburg definitely feels like a larger city and metro area. Downtown Harrisburg, while not quite as vibrant with its arts scene as downtown Lancaster, feels like a more medium-sized city. However, while downtown Harrisburg lacks the arts scene of Lancaster, visit on a weekday when office workers are back and it feels even more vibrant than Lancaster (and has a good restaurant scene as well). And Harrisburg has a much more scenic location than Lancaster (I realize that's subjective). Its location along a beautiful wide river with mountains in the background is really a huge advantage for those who appreciate that and want outdoor activities like boating, biking, and kayaking. Similarly, I would argue Harrisburg has a better and more accessible park system for its residents. I lived in Harrisburg for a time and really miss walks along the river and biking on the greenbelt. Lancaster just doesn't have anything like that. Another note on the "size" is that Lancaster feels like more of a one note town with a vibrant downtown but otherwise all residential neighborhoods. Harrisburg has more nodes of activity like downtown, midtown, Allison Hill (which itself has multiple commercial corridors), etc.

Downtown Harrisburg has a way to go but there is a really exciting energy in midtown that feels like it could be the next Lancaster in a few years. Third street is finally redeveloping after years of neglect and Lancaster has nothing like Millworks (what a treasure!). FWIW, midtown Harrisburg is an order of magnitude cheaper than downtown Lancaster! So it's probably a good time to invest or buy.

Politically, the Harrisburg area and its immediate suburbs are definitely a little bluer than Lancaster, so there's that for people that care. Lancaster has seen some shifts in that direction but it's behind Harrisburg.

Yes, I agree with you. Harrisburg has most definitely a larger skyline, and during the weekday, especially when the house is in session, the vibrancy is in Harrisburg's favor.

Lancaster is more centralized though and its downtown is much more vibrant on average and it overall looks much nicer, and its real estate in the city has overall been quite resilient. Lancaster City has an impressive preservation program, to preserve its architecture. Harrisburg does not.

Lancaster does not have the Millworks, but I will say its restaurant offerings overall in its downtown area most definitely exceeds Harrisburg's, and I will say overall Lancaster art scene is well beyond Harrisburg, and combined with places like Tellus 360 and the Exchange. It 100% exceeds the Millworks on all levels.

On the metro level, the amenities are in Lancaster's favor as well.

Even in terms of architecture on the metro level, Lancaster overall builds much nicer and better projects.

Lancaster metro amenities include places like an Apple Store, Whole Foods, Nordstrom, West Elm, PF Changs, MAC Cosmetics and more.

I know these things seem small, but when a region is looking to grow and attract educated professionals, they seek out these amenities in their community.

Harrisburg has none of that and I do not see it coming to the area. It kind of baffles me to be honest.

I am from Harrisburg, and I just do not understand why two metros, that are very similar in size and wealth, are so different in their offerings. Harrisburg is trending behind Lancaster currently. And many I know from Harrisburg acknowledge it, and it also baffles them, why Lancaster has all these nice things, and the Harrisburg metro does not.
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Old 01-24-2021, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Center City Philadelphia
443 posts, read 404,393 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rowhomecity View Post
Yes, I agree with you. Harrisburg has most definitely a larger skyline, and during the weekday, especially when the house is in session, the vibrancy is in Harrisburg's favor.

Lancaster is more centralized though and its downtown is much more vibrant on average and it overall looks much nicer, and its real estate in the city has overall been quite resilient. Lancaster City has an impressive preservation program, to preserve its architecture. Harrisburg does not.

Lancaster does not have the Millworks, but I will say its restaurant offerings overall in its downtown area most definitely exceeds Harrisburg's, and I will say overall Lancaster art scene is well beyond Harrisburg, and combined with places like Tellus 360 and the Exchange. It 100% exceeds the Millworks on all levels.

On the metro level, the amenities are in Lancaster's favor as well.

Even in terms of architecture on the metro level, Lancaster overall builds much nicer and better projects.

Lancaster metro amenities include places like an Apple Store, Whole Foods, Nordstrom, West Elm, PF Changs, MAC Cosmetics and more.

I know these things seem small, but when a region is looking to grow and attract educated professionals, they seek out these amenities in their community.

Harrisburg has none of that and I do not see it coming to the area. It kind of baffles me to be honest.

I am from Harrisburg, and I just do not understand why two metros, that are very similar in size and wealth, are so different in their offerings. Harrisburg is trending behind Lancaster currently. And many I know from Harrisburg acknowledge it, and it also baffles them, why Lancaster has all these nice things, and the Harrisburg metro does not.
To be fair, it's a Nordstrom Rack and West Elm outlet. To me, the fact that Lancaster punches above its weight in retail is unsurprising. It's a huge tourist mecca for the east coast. As long as people have been visiting Lancaster, the outlets have been around, and people love to go shopping tax-free. So it makes sense upscale chains would dip their toes in the market there.

Wegmans, on the other hand, went to Harrisburg first. Whole Foods picked Lancaster. I guess we'll have to see where Trader Joes lands, though there is a strong rumor one is going to be built on the west shore.

I'm not sure how many educated professionals care for upscale shopping? Maybe they do, but after all KOP is just a short drive away from both metros for anyone who wants lots of that.

Harrisburg, unfortunately, didn't (and doesn't) preserve its historical architecture as much as Lancaster because the state government destroyed so much for its expansion and Harrisburg suffered from significant population loss. Neither of those things happened to Lancaster so it's starting off on a stronger baseline when it comes to its urban fabric.
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Old 01-25-2021, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia
2,539 posts, read 2,267,591 times
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Originally Posted by bridge12 View Post
To be fair, it's a Nordstrom Rack and West Elm outlet. To me, the fact that Lancaster punches above its weight in retail is unsurprising. It's a huge tourist mecca for the east coast. As long as people have been visiting Lancaster, the outlets have been around, and people love to go shopping tax-free. So it makes sense upscale chains would dip their toes in the market there.

Wegmans, on the other hand, went to Harrisburg first. Whole Foods picked Lancaster. I guess we'll have to see where Trader Joes lands, though there is a strong rumor one is going to be built on the west shore.

I'm not sure how many educated professionals care for upscale shopping? Maybe they do, but after all KOP is just a short drive away from both metros for anyone who wants lots of that.

Harrisburg, unfortunately, didn't (and doesn't) preserve its historical architecture as much as Lancaster because the state government destroyed so much for its expansion and Harrisburg suffered from significant population loss. Neither of those things happened to Lancaster so it's starting off on a stronger baseline when it comes to its urban fabric.

Retail is always considered a way to measure the scale of a metro, by many metrics.

Once a metro gets an Apple Store, Whole Foods, MAC cosmetics etc.

It has met the threshold that merits the demographics to build the physical store. It should be noted that Apple, Whole Foods, Nordstrom Rack, MAC, etc. are not in the tourist portions of Lancaster County, and most definitely are not frequented by tourist.

Apple and even Nordstrom Rack do not just open up anywhere.

And this also has an affect to transplants looking to locate to an area. Those moving from a larger metro like Philadelphia or DC, have an expectation to have those retail locations at their disposal, and it does increase the talent pool that is willing to move to an area, more than you would think.


I would not be surprised if Park City would get a full scale Nordstrom in the future.


I also believe the metro developments in Lancaster, are of far better architectural quality, from residential developments to its commercial areas, not just in the city itself. The new projects being built, just look nicer and more cohesive and of such better quality.

With that, I am a big advocate of both metros.

IMHO, I think the reason why Harrisburg metro is fumbling, is because there is no real coordinated regional leadership, and Cumberland County has turned its back on Dauphin County, in terms of a "metro wide vision".

And therefore the battle of East Shore v. West Shore, really hurts the Harrisburg metro overall.

Whereas Lancaster is all centralized and highly coordinated, with a well established planning department that has large scale master plans for the county as a whole, including the Lancaster metro.

Harrisburg does not have this, so its development has been scattered, and largely poorly planned and executed.

Which is a shame, because overall Harrisburg has a stronger CBD, and overall has a slightly higher wealth per GDP, which means it most certainly has more potential. But it just does not seem to be realized.

Last edited by rowhomecity; 01-25-2021 at 09:03 AM..
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Old 01-25-2021, 11:37 PM
 
Location: Lancaster, PA
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We left Austin TX for a variety or reasons and now live in Lancaster. RowHome, you were very helpful in our search and we weighed pros/cons of both Hburg and Lanc. Bottom line, our 2 favorites homes in Hburg had sub-par schools and the ones in Lanc (at the time) were less expensive and had higher rated (significantly) schools. So that swayed the decision plus we have family in the area. We did consider the retail amenities but have only been to PF or Apple once or twice...(I feel the outlets are a whole separate area of Lanc) ....we did discover many "hole in the wall spots" that we prefer more. From pizza, pho, to ethiopian.

Randomly, I am spending more time in downtown Hburg on a work assignment so getting a better feel for the area. The riverfront and bridge seem like a nice area to explore, along with the capitol and civil war museum.
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Old 01-28-2021, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
2,539 posts, read 2,267,591 times
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Originally Posted by JT-3 View Post
We left Austin TX for a variety or reasons and now live in Lancaster. RowHome, you were very helpful in our search and we weighed pros/cons of both Hburg and Lanc. Bottom line, our 2 favorites homes in Hburg had sub-par schools and the ones in Lanc (at the time) were less expensive and had higher rated (significantly) schools. So that swayed the decision plus we have family in the area. We did consider the retail amenities but have only been to PF or Apple once or twice...(I feel the outlets are a whole separate area of Lanc) ....we did discover many "hole in the wall spots" that we prefer more. From pizza, pho, to ethiopian.

Randomly, I am spending more time in downtown Hburg on a work assignment so getting a better feel for the area. The riverfront and bridge seem like a nice area to explore, along with the capitol and civil war museum.

Yes, I HIGHLY recommend doing a state capitol tour, inside the capitol is very impressive.

Also in Harrisburg, check out Midtown, especially the Broad St. Market, Millworks, Susquehanna Art Musuem, Riley Theater, Midtown Book Scholar. It all makes for a nice afternoon.
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