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Old 09-23-2022, 05:54 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
12,152 posts, read 6,734,327 times
Reputation: 8769

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FKD19124 View Post
They made the conscious decision to do so. Make better decisions.
The harsh mandatory sentences were enacted because their advocates believed they would deter people from making foolish decisions.

Seems to me this approach hasn't worked. Maybe we should try something else.

I was in Phoenixville yesterday, at a Phoenixville Area Chamber of Commerce luncheon where the borough manager gave a rundown of all the developent and infrastructure projects underway or approved in the borough.

The luncheon was held in the borough's huge new recreation center, the largest municipal rec center in Chester County. It has a large multipurpose room for meetings, conferences and shows, an even larger court that can house multiple basketball, volleyball and pickeball games, a large yoga studio, a preschool and a Police Athletic League-sponsored boxing facility that honors Phoenixville's "fighting policeman" (whose name I didn't jot down.)

I spoke with one of the center's managers after the meeting, a Black woman named Delores (mumble) who also organzes the borough's annual interfaith prayer breakfast every fall.

She told me that the borough actually has more social and community service agencies (per capita, I think) than any other municipality in the county (something that surprised me, for I figured that honor would belong to more depressed Coatesville). Many of these groups, she said, organize activities for local youth that give them something to do when they're not in school.

If you recall that ProPublica article about Philadelphia's crime surge, you may remember that it pointed out that it was the disappearance of this (often neighborhood-based) ecosystem after the onset of the pandemic that contributed significantly to the rise in crime.

Seems the ones in Phoenixville held together. And while the borough has made quite an impressive recovery from the loss of its steel mill, it's still not what you'd call affluent (though its main street clearly shows there are enough people in and around it who can drop enough coin to support more craft breweries and distilleries per capita than all but one other municipality in the country, according to the borough's mayor).

I haven't heard anything about crime rising in Phoenixville. Have you?

An ounce of prevention, and all that....
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Old 09-23-2022, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Shawnee-on-Delaware, PA
6,978 posts, read 6,069,441 times
Reputation: 13823
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
Who said anything about feeling sorry for anyone?
Why single out "the getaway car driver" then? If the state proves they were a willing participant and not a dupe or a hostage, then why shouldn't they be sentenced for a deadly crime?

Quote:
Gov. Corbett's Corrections Secretary, I'll wager, was no bleeding heart. I suspect he was wearing his green eyeshade when he talked about how much money the Commonwealth could save by releasing from prison people who no longer had any good reason to remain in it. Vengeance and anger aren't good enough reasons.
Find me the context and I'll discuss it with you, if you like. I'm not going to steadfastly defend everything that may have ever been said by any Republican, without at least knowing the context.

Quote:
And wouldn't you like the Commonwealth to not spend money it doesn't have to?
I'd like the Commonwealth to fix a system that's broken. Last night on my local cable news, jail guards spoke about the missing knives and metal spatulas from the kitchen at the Monroe County CF. There is a lack of manpower so knives go missing and they can't find them. Who will get shivved, a guard, a prisoner, or both? I guess the cheapest solution is to let everyone out. Problem solved.

And I notice you didn't respond to me about Krasner. The guy's doing a great job, isn't he, saving all that tax money that would otherwise be spent on prosecuting criminals and then housing them as inmates.
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Old 09-23-2022, 08:20 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
12,152 posts, read 6,734,327 times
Reputation: 8769
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtab4994 View Post
Why single out "the getaway car driver" then? If the state proves they were a willing participant and not a dupe or a hostage, then why shouldn't they be sentenced for a deadly crime?
Because they didn't do the killing and aren't likely to kill once released. In essence, this is "guilt by association" — and our justice system isn't supposed to use that as a means to determine sentencing.

This FactCheck piece on the GOP ads slamming Fetterman on the release of prisoners notes that Pennsylvania is one of only eight US states that mandate life without parole for anyone convicted of felony murder.

Quote:
Find me the context and I'll discuss it with you, if you like. I'm not going to steadfastly defend everything that may have ever been said by any Republican, without at least knowing the context.
Apparently, there is no online record of former Corrections Secretary John Wetzel actually stating the 1,200-prisoner figure Fetterman attributed to him. But if you read this Patriot-News interview with Whetzel shortly after Gov. Tom Wolf, who thwarted Corbett's re-election bid, announced he was keeping Whetzel on as head of the state's prison system, it should be clear that he believed Pennsylvania was keeping too many people behind bars and that he had reducing the number of those incarcerated while also making it less likely that they would reoffend once released as his goal.

And according to his former boss, who testified about the subject in Washington the year prior, Whetzel's strategy was working: both the prison population and the recidivism rate dropped on his watch.

Quote:
I'd like the Commonwealth to fix a system that's broken. Last night on my local cable news, jail guards spoke about the missing knives and metal spatulas from the kitchen at the Monroe County CF. There is a lack of manpower so knives go missing and they can't find them. Who will get shivved, a guard, a prisoner, or both? I guess the cheapest solution is to let everyone out. Problem solved.

And I notice you didn't respond to me about Krasner. The guy's doing a great job, isn't he, saving all that tax money that would otherwise be spent on prosecuting criminals and then housing them as inmates.
I'm not about to defend Krasner. But I think the tough-on-crime crowd tends to ignore strategies short of locking people up and throwing away the key that actually keep a lid on crime and reduce the likelihood that people will commit them, either for the first time or again.

And as NewtownBucks pointed out, this issue is much more nuanced than the lock-'em-all-up crowd, who IMO tend to paint all criminals with the same broad brush you just did in that snippet of your post, admits. Sure, some inmates really are dangerous and should not be released under any circumstances. But others aren't — they actually did get their act together in prison, or they aged out of crime (cheaper to keep those geezers in a nursing home than in prison). Keeping them locked up sends no message to the general public other than "we don't care about the actual people, locking them up makes us feel good."

Edited to add: And that "cheapest solution" passage of yours show that you too take a needlessly Manichean view of the subject. "Getting as many people out as possible" is not the same as "getting them all out." Again, not everyone deserves to get out, and it seems that, Fetterman's presence on it notwithstanding, the parole board understood that too.
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Old 09-23-2022, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
6,499 posts, read 9,475,163 times
Reputation: 7451
Conservatives simply don't believe in rehabilitation and second chances. That's literally what it comes down to. And I don't want to hear the fear-mongering about public safety; it has nothing to do with that. It's all punishment for the sake of punishment. ”Eye for an eye” and all of that nonsense.

Ironic, considering that goes against a core tenet of Christianity--forgiveness--to which most American conservatives fervently subscribe.

But sadly the conversation about criminal justice is tainted by anger, not logic. Plenty of data supports re-entry programs for non-violent offenders and their incredible value, but they heard on Newsmax that all prisoners are murderers and rapists, so let's throw away the key!
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Old 09-23-2022, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
1,981 posts, read 1,050,408 times
Reputation: 2630
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
Conservatives simply don't believe in rehabilitation and second chances. That's literally what it comes down to. And I don't want to hear the fear-mongering about public safety; it has nothing to do with that. It's all punishment for the sake of punishment. ”Eye for an eye” and all of that nonsense.

Ironic, considering that goes against a core tenet of Christianity--forgiveness--to which most American conservatives fervently subscribe.

But sadly the conversation about criminal justice is tainted by anger, not logic. Plenty of data supports re-entry programs for non-violent offenders and their incredible value, but they heard on Newsmax that all prisoners are murderers and rapists, so let's throw away the key!
That's true, and a really good point. Anytime anyone is being considered for release, esp. one who once was involved in violence, of course public safety should be the number one priority. If specialists agree that the threat is all but zero, after that, I do wonder, where do we see examples of Christian compassionism? It's weird to hear all of this compassion-shaming during a time in which Christian Nationalism is on the rise.

None of that is to mention the very real cost it has on our economy, too. But of course that bit would be turned into a soundbite about Starbucks workers. Ted Cruz much?
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Old 09-23-2022, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Plymouth Meeting, PA.
5,385 posts, read 2,872,446 times
Reputation: 2848
no but they conciosuly participated knowing it was wrong and as well as the outcome.
Fettermans ideas are as bad as the cashless bail BS that we have in Philadelphia which has done nothing to deter crime.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
Because they didn't do the killing and aren't likely to kill once released. In essence, this is "guilt by association" — and our justice system isn't supposed to use that as a means to determine sentencing.

This FactCheck piece on the GOP ads slamming Fetterman on the release of prisoners notes that Pennsylvania is one of only eight US states that mandate life without parole for anyone convicted of felony murder.



Apparently, there is no online record of former Corrections Secretary John Wetzel actually stating the 1,200-prisoner figure Fetterman attributed to him. But if you read this Patriot-News interview with Whetzel shortly after Gov. Tom Wolf, who thwarted Corbett's re-election bid, announced he was keeping Whetzel on as head of the state's prison system, it should be clear that he believed Pennsylvania was keeping too many people behind bars and that he had reducing the number of those incarcerated while also making it less likely that they would reoffend once released as his goal.

And according to his former boss, who testified about the subject in Washington the year prior, Whetzel's strategy was working: both the prison population and the recidivism rate dropped on his watch.



I'm not about to defend Krasner. But I think the tough-on-crime crowd tends to ignore strategies short of locking people up and throwing away the key that actually keep a lid on crime and reduce the likelihood that people will commit them, either for the first time or again.

And as NewtownBucks pointed out, this issue is much more nuanced than the lock-'em-all-up crowd, who IMO tend to paint all criminals with the same broad brush you just did in that snippet of your post, admits. Sure, some inmates really are dangerous and should not be released under any circumstances. But others aren't — they actually did get their act together in prison, or they aged out of crime (cheaper to keep those geezers in a nursing home than in prison). Keeping them locked up sends no message to the general public other than "we don't care about the actual people, locking them up makes us feel good."

Edited to add: And that "cheapest solution" passage of yours show that you too take a needlessly Manichean view of the subject. "Getting as many people out as possible" is not the same as "getting them all out." Again, not everyone deserves to get out, and it seems that, Fetterman's presence on it notwithstanding, the parole board understood that too.

Last edited by FKD19124; 09-23-2022 at 11:32 AM..
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Old 09-23-2022, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Plymouth Meeting, PA.
5,385 posts, read 2,872,446 times
Reputation: 2848
apples and oranges.
and it seems you do not understand what forgiveness really is.
Many families who have been victims of crime and murder have forgiven the purpetrator. In forgiving, it releases them for their sake, not the criminal.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Muinteoir View Post
That's true, and a really good point. Anytime anyone is being considered for release, esp. one who once was involved in violence, of course public safety should be the number one priority. If specialists agree that the threat is all but zero, after that, I do wonder, where do we see examples of Christian compassionism? It's weird to hear all of this compassion-shaming during a time in which Christian Nationalism is on the rise.

None of that is to mention the very real cost it has on our economy, too. But of course that bit would be turned into a soundbite about Starbucks workers. Ted Cruz much?
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Old 09-23-2022, 02:05 PM
 
Location: U.S.
6,688 posts, read 6,873,264 times
Reputation: 3952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
Conservatives simply don't believe in rehabilitation and second chances. That's literally what it comes down to. And I don't want to hear the fear-mongering about public safety; it has nothing to do with that. It's all punishment for the sake of punishment. ”Eye for an eye” and all of that nonsense.

Ironic, considering that goes against a core tenet of Christianity--forgiveness--to which most American conservatives fervently subscribe.

But sadly the conversation about criminal justice is tainted by anger, not logic. Plenty of data supports re-entry programs for non-violent offenders and their incredible value, but they heard on Newsmax that all prisoners are murderers and rapists, so let's throw away the key!
When the prisoners are released, they then can get a state paid John Fetterman hoodie. Sizes vary.

https://www.cornershirt.com/product/...oodie-on-sale/

https://www.capitlclothing.com/produ...terman-hoodie/

https://www.teepublic.com/hoodie/fetterman
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Old 09-23-2022, 02:32 PM
 
1,012 posts, read 362,050 times
Reputation: 925
Though I'd never buy one, I have to say, I appreciate that they clarify in the description that the materials are "not cheap". Though I don't "Durable" was a proper known. An all around professional posting if you ask me.
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Old 09-23-2022, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Shawnee-on-Delaware, PA
6,978 posts, read 6,069,441 times
Reputation: 13823
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
Because they didn't do the killing and aren't likely to kill once released. In essence, this is "guilt by association" — and our justice system isn't supposed to use that as a means to determine sentencing.
Participating in an armed robbery is not "guilt by association". That's really twisted logic. I'll wager the poor getaway driver, the one in the gang with the least testosterone and supposedly deserving of the most sympathy, I guess, would run over your grandmother to escape. Aren't likely to kill? How do you know?

Quote:
Apparently, there is no online record of former Corrections Secretary John Wetzel actually stating the 1,200-prisoner figure Fetterman attributed to him. But if you read this Patriot-News interview with Whetzel shortly after Gov. Tom Wolf, who thwarted Corbett's re-election bid, announced he was keeping Whetzel on as head of the state's prison system, it should be clear that he believed Pennsylvania was keeping too many people behind bars and that he had reducing the number of those incarcerated while also making it less likely that they would reoffend once released as his goal.

And according to his former boss, who testified about the subject in Washington the year prior, Whetzel's strategy was working: both the prison population and the recidivism rate dropped on his watch.
Everyone is in favor of prison and sentencing reform. I'm sure you applauded Trump for his efforts. But there is a time and place for it. Now is not the time, when crime is on the rise, prison guards and cops are quitting and retiring, and many DA's are derelict. Let's get a handle on crime before we talk about which criminals deserve early release.

Quote:
I'm not about to defend Krasner. But I think the tough-on-crime crowd tends to ignore strategies short of locking people up and throwing away the key that actually keep a lid on crime and reduce the likelihood that people will commit them, either for the first time or again.

And as NewtownBucks pointed out, this issue is much more nuanced than the lock-'em-all-up crowd, who IMO tend to paint all criminals with the same broad brush you just did in that snippet of your post, admits. Sure, some inmates really are dangerous and should not be released under any circumstances. But others aren't — they actually did get their act together in prison, or they aged out of crime (cheaper to keep those geezers in a nursing home than in prison). Keeping them locked up sends no message to the general public other than "we don't care about the actual people, locking them up makes us feel good."

Edited to add: And that "cheapest solution" passage of yours show that you too take a needlessly Manichean view of the subject. "Getting as many people out as possible" is not the same as "getting them all out." Again, not everyone deserves to get out, and it seems that, Fetterman's presence on it notwithstanding, the parole board understood that too.
You are making a leap from people being against early release to "the lock-'em-all-up crowd". It's a lot more nuanced than that.

When "Veggie Tray" Fetterman sticks his big ol' Doc Marten in his mouth it's easy to say he's a real nuanced guy and he has layers, but it's harder to square that with his straight-talking non-nonsense populist persona. Does he say what he means, or not?

(Manichean -- props for working in a $10 word)
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