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Old 04-15-2011, 12:55 PM
 
48,522 posts, read 79,276,586 times
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I have alwasy thought middle class was being able to lve a decent life really in a good environment.Everytime I hear about that wages haven't gone up for deacdes I loo around me. What I see is mnay necessities being paid for in benfit gains given instead of salary increases. Its looks like that is changing as the cost of hman with benefits as gotten very high.I see that this has driven the cost of automation and higher saleries with computer and robot aids lower i comparison. I lok around me and comapre to to when I was a kid and what I see is people eating at restaurants with more being built etc.Certainly the definition of middle class has changed since the 50's and early 60's just loig at what people spend their moneyy on and often borrow for o credit cards.Most live a life my parents couldn't have believed and they were solid middle class.
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Old 04-15-2011, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 16,704,479 times
Reputation: 4303
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
why should i give you a precise number of my household income on a public forum? is that really necessary?
You give precise details about your home, your car, etc but you stop at household income? Obviously that is a bit curious.... Regardless, you can have to say anything you don't want to, I think your situation is pretty obvious though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
listen, i'm not jersey shore cheerleader, but the perception of beaches in NJ being crummy is overblown.
I never said they were "crummy", I just implied that they weren't particularly nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
the population of young people in the NYC metro area is not as dismal as you want to paint it, and it's not just immigrants. and there is quite a bit of middle class in the NY Metro area.
Keep track of what is being claimed, you're just being sloppy. Firstly, as I stressed earlier, its the ownership that matters, most youth in NYC are renting. Secondly, my claim about the middle-class was with regard to NYC proper, not the entire metro area. Thirdly, yes, the population growth from the last decade or so is from immigrants.
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Old 04-15-2011, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Chicago
5,414 posts, read 8,098,570 times
Reputation: 6331
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Firstly, as I stressed earlier, its the ownership that matters, most youth in NYC are renting.
Ok, I'm just jumping in here and I apologize for not having read all 22 pages of this thread...

Could you elaborate on the importance of ownership vs. renting for NYC youth at the beginning of professional careers? For example, I have highly-educated, career-mobile, 20-something family members living in NYC and working on Wall St. They rent by choice (could easily afford to buy) as they have chosen to invest in other areas (e.g. a new business, commercial property, etc.) rather than a potentially depreciating, primary residence. They are at the beginning of likely lucrative international careers where they may not be in a NYC property for more than a few years. This seems like a very typical NYC youth demographic.
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Old 04-15-2011, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 16,704,479 times
Reputation: 4303
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCUBS1 View Post
Could you elaborate on the importance of ownership vs. renting for NYC youth at the beginning of professional careers? For example, I have highly-educated, career-mobile, 20-something family members living in NYC and working on Wall St. They rent by choice (could easily afford to buy) as they have chosen to invest in other areas (e.g. a new business, commercial property, etc.) rather than a potentially depreciating, primary residence.
I was discussing a generational housing bubble in the high-cost coastal markets, I contend that most property in these markets is owned by boomers and that younger generations will not be able to support current property evaluations when the oldster need to liquidate. The other poster was conflating living in NYC with owning property in NYC, and just as you are suggesting here renting in NYC is very common for young people so one can't do that. Personally, I don't know a single (younger) person in NYC that owns property, not only are they unlikely to be there in 5~10 years but its just simply cheaper to rent. Much the same situation here in LA.

I wasn't trying to imply people should be buying homes, much the opposite in fact, I think youth that buy in these markets are making a huge financial mistake.
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Old 04-15-2011, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Chicago
5,414 posts, read 8,098,570 times
Reputation: 6331
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
I was discussing a generational housing bubble in the high-cost coastal markets, I contend that most property in these markets is owned by boomers and that younger generations will not be able to support current property evaluations when the oldster need to liquidate. The other poster was conflating living in NYC with owning property in NYC, and just as you are suggesting here renting in NYC is very common for young people so one can't do that. Personally, I don't know a single (younger) person in NYC that owns property, not only are they unlikely to be there in 5~10 years but its just simply cheaper to rent. Much the same situation here in LA.

I wasn't trying to imply people should be buying homes, much the opposite in fact, I think youth that buy in these markets are making a huge financial mistake.

Ok, got it. Thanks for the recap.

That baby boomer population shift along with foreclosures, shadow inventory, overbuilding, financing restrictions, unemployment, shifts in thinking, etc. are widespread issue that will affect real estate valuations for some time. This is why I fully agree with your last sentence.
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Old 04-15-2011, 02:56 PM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,542 posts, read 17,352,059 times
Reputation: 3677
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
You give precise details about your home, your car, etc but you stop at household income? Obviously that is a bit curious.... Regardless, you can have to say anything you don't want to, I think your situation is pretty obvious though.


I never said they were "crummy", I just implied that they weren't particularly nice.


Keep track of what is being claimed, you're just being sloppy. Firstly, as I stressed earlier, its the ownership that matters, most youth in NYC are renting. Secondly, my claim about the middle-class was with regard to NYC proper, not the entire metro area. Thirdly, yes, the population growth from the last decade or so is from immigrants.
i didn't give precise details about my home. i said what it approximately cost. i own two cars...i don't mind telling people what model. my household income is more personal information i think...so now, i won't be that precise. over $100k was said only because the other guy also said that. i was responding to him. i also make over $100k household, and my expenses are higher. so unless i am making that much more than he is in texas, i found it pretty crazy that my house could be that much more than his but that my ability to save and feel comfortable is that much easier.

not nice, crummy...splitting hairs. their really is a lot of very nice beaches in NJ. i was shocked, i thought they were all not particularly nice also, before i moved here.

most youth in NYC itself are renting...but i'm telling you to look in the metro area and your not correct. all those gold coast cities have been reviving because of all the 20s and 30s folks buying property. spend a day in one of the suburban downtowns and take a survey.

maybe this is unique to nyc metro area. maybe other parts of the northeast it's doomed. but i'm sorry, there is a constant supply of young renters and buyers because of what NYC is. unless it loses it's status as the financial capital of the country, that's not changing.
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Old 04-15-2011, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,476 posts, read 16,704,479 times
Reputation: 4303
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
most youth in NYC itself are renting...but i'm telling you to look in the metro area and your not correct. all those gold coast cities have been reviving because of all the 20s and 30s folks buying property. spend a day in one of the suburban downtowns and take a survey.
Not correct about what? My claim is that property ownership in the NYC metro is dominated by boomers, not that boomers are the only owners. The fact that there are some communities, usually recently gentrified ones, that have a high percentage of youth doesn't refute my claim. I'm speaking about the area as a whole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
but i'm sorry, there is a constant supply of young renters and buyers because of what NYC is. unless it loses it's status as the financial capital of the country, that's not changing.
Sorry about what? You aren't even addressing my claim, I never suggested that young folks aren't attracted to NYC, instead I claimed that the younger generations don't, as a whole, have the means to purchase property at current evaluations. Something has to give and that something will be prices. The only real question is whether the inflated prices will have long-term damage to the area, that is, will NYC become Detroit II? Not out of the question....
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:14 PM
 
2,060 posts, read 4,936,884 times
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maybe i'm naive to think this, but to some degree, the romance of living "near NYC" is something strong for a lot of people. certainly not to me. i'm not hear because i love NYC. i like it. but i constantly meet people who move here because it's NYC. and really, the COL is not as bad as people blow it out to be in many of the areas that are commutable to NYC.
Perhaps. But it seems from my anecdotal observations on this site that there is a LOT of people- especially from the Northeast- moving out of that area. I lived in Boston for a few years and while its not NYC, it was pretty awful. Cold weather, high rents, and high real estate costs. I have friends who live in NYC and absolutely love it. But they're spending every penny to live there too. I think for many people there is an allure- no doubt. Otherwise it wouldn't be so costly. But that high cost is what is also driving people out. California is pretty much as bad.

The bottom line is that if you look at where economic growth tends to happen in the US, it tends to be where there are plentiful jobs, reasonably priced housing, and useful infrastructures. At this point that growth is happening in the Southeast and not the coasts mainly because the coasts are now too costly.
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Old 04-15-2011, 07:27 PM
 
3,719 posts, read 4,350,327 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unseengundam View Post
I have to lot of so called middle class in American really can't afford that lifestyle. I think you need make over $100k+, even in an cheaper place like Dallas. For expensive areas, like NYC, you might need like $500k a year! Most people in middle class would should be called the "working class" instead. The middle class lifestyle has many expenses (listed below) and it can get expensive.

Here is what I think most people consider a middle class lifestyle:

-Retire with same lifestyle as pre-retirement
-1-2 years worth of spending money in cash
-Enough money to buy a nice single family house (McMansion)
-Be able afford to put kids through university
-Money to buy new cars every 3-5 years
-Afford nice vacations each year (probably $10k+)
-Money to buy latest smartphone every 2 years,computers, and other electronics

The excepted middle class lifestyle is NOT really frugal. When you look at this list, you can tell how expensive it can get. Being able to spend a lot of your money while still saving for retirement requires a high income.

A lot of people living this lifestyle on has no retirement saving and/or tons of debts. These people are really working class can't / shouldn't try to go for this lifestyle. Of course people making less than $100K (like me) can save for retirement by living more frugal lifestyle. However, you will definitely miss many middle class niceties like brand new cars every few years!
That sounds more like a wealthy person.
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Old 04-16-2011, 07:35 AM
 
Location: Central CT, sometimes NH.
3,217 posts, read 4,805,213 times
Reputation: 2942
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Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Yes..and as stated it is defining social-class solely in terms of income and that makes no sense. The author is using the meaningless definition I spoke of earlier, namely, "neither poor or rich". To say it again, you won't find any sociologist defining social-class solely in terms of income and just in case you weren't aware social-class is a sociological topic. Nor will you find them using this vacuous definition of "middle-class".
The romanticized "middle class" of the 50s era was largely a group that was not college educated. Many were post-WWII veterans who returned to good jobs in manufacturing, public service or small business. This afforded them the opportunity to own their own home, a car, take an annual trip to the lake with the family, and provide an environment that allowed their children to have even greater opportunities than they did.

You don't have to be college-educated to be considered "middle class." In fact, many people with the income, mentality, and social/civic consciousness are not.

IMHO, one of the reasons the "middle-class" lifestyle may be on the decline is because it is more centered on the individual, consumer products, and status symbols, and less centered on the community, relationships, and civic stewardship. The structure of our society has changed since the dawning of the American middle class. Lifetime employment in the same company or community is rare as is children staying in the same geographic location as their parents and extended family members.

In a nomadic environment it is natural for people to focus on themselves and adapting to constant changes. If this disruption occurs frequently one's contributions to the longterm culture of the community is limited.

For many, I believe, deep down they long for a greater sense of belonging, stability, and predictability. Their fond memories/stories of the "middle-class" lifestyle of the past drives them to make consumer-based decisions in an attempt to "purchase" an idyllic lifestyle that largely no longer exists outside of more rural or geographically isolated areas of the country where income-level is less of a factor in obtaining the modest goals of the 50s "middle class."
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