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Old 05-19-2016, 07:24 AM
 
18,493 posts, read 15,458,741 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeo123 View Post

3) NEVER, EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE use a debit card for a purchase. Either hit the ATM or use a CC. Never swipe the debit card unless it's life or death. It's an absolute last resort.
My bank offers full protection on it and it's a more convenient way to keep CC utilization low than making weekly payments.
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Old 05-19-2016, 07:25 AM
 
629 posts, read 1,714,814 times
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I get the distaste towards Dave Ramsey in a few areas (noted below), but in terms of getting people out of debt I don't see why some people hate him so much.

In the marathon world there's a guy named Jeff Galloway who preaches what he calls the "run-walk" method. It's simply a system that gets people to believe they can finish a marathon (or any other distance race) by starting small, running for a minute, walking for a few minutes to start and gradually working up towards more running and less walking. Is someone doing that ever going to win a race? Unlikely, but it HAS encouraged countless people who thought they were too overweight or too out of shape to get up off the couch and eventually complete a race. I think that's great and should be commended. Dave Ramsey is just the Jeff Galloway of finance. He's more coach/cheerleader/salesman than good financial guru but his 'pitch' gets people to believe they can get out of debt and save for retirement. Following his plan isn't optimal, but it's a lot better than what the average person out there is doing.

*That said, his investment advice where he sends listeners to his ELPs who then put people into high fee / loaded funds is borderline criminal and his advice to military families to go ahead and buy in markets that have been hot even if they're likely to be moving in 2-3 years is terrible.
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Old 05-19-2016, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Spain
12,722 posts, read 7,504,029 times
Reputation: 22628
Quote:
Originally Posted by jotucker99 View Post
This has 0% logic to it. The reason people spend MORE than they should as well as spend without knowing where the hell the money WENT, is because there's NO written budget that's outlined that they are financially discipline to sticking to.
More likely you can't grasp the logic. One can have a written budget and not spend more than they should, and still gain benefit from an electronic transaction helping them track their spending. Making a budget is planning, actually spending is what you track to ensure you're keeping to the plan.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jotucker99 View Post
Which you can get on a credit card, you can get on a debit card, you can use a check for that $5.73 and just make an immediate side record of it, you can use cash for the $5.73 and make an immediate side record of it.
I find looking at a credit card transaction history online far more convenient than manually recording everything, it is a lot easier to forget or put off doing the latter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jotucker99 View Post
Plenty of people? So there's PLENTY of people who run around without a written budget, don't know where the hell their money is going every month, can't account for where it goes....but that makes them financially responsible?

0% logic.
Well yeah. If someone is taking home $6,000/month and putting away $3,000 of it, living on the remaining $3,000 while also carrying no debt, significant net worth from savings, no frivolous spending, emergency fund in place, etc. I'd call them financially responsible regardless of whether they have a written budget. They are living well under their means. One doesn't need to have all the boxes checked to be considered financially responsible.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jotucker99 View Post
The core of the vast majority of financial problems is not knowing how much is going OUT, and not knowing how much is coming IN.
Above person can measure precisely what goes in and comes out. They take home $6,000, put away $3,000, and the other $3,000 goes out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jotucker99 View Post
Argue all damn day (like I know you and ncole 1 will for the next 5 pages, because you really don't disagree with me, you just can't bring yourselves to admitting you AGREE with something Tucker99 says)....a written budget is the foundational CORE of financial responsibility. You can't manage what you can't measure.

You two HATE to agree with anything I say that much, to where you are literally arguing about my recommendation of having a written damn budget. Sickening.

What's next? I'm going to say it's GOOD that people do routine physical exams every year, and you are going to respond with, "Well, not everybody needs to do one because a lot of people have good health status."
Wow you really can't handle someone holding a different opinion than you without going off the rails with the persecution complex can you? Yeah yeah yeah everyone is always ganging up on poor jotucker they all actually agree with him but say the opposite to antagonize the poor victim. Get help.

For the record I never argued against a recommendation of keeping a budget, I said "Having a written budget is always good" but I do disagree with your assertion that without a budget one is financially irresponsible. It is entirely possible to be financially responsible without a written budget.
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Old 05-19-2016, 08:10 AM
 
Location: Clinton Township, MI
1,901 posts, read 1,817,900 times
Reputation: 2329
Quote:
Originally Posted by lieqiang View Post
If someone is taking home $6,000/month and putting away $3,000 of it, living on the remaining $3,000 while also carrying no debt, significant net worth from savings, no frivolous spending, emergency fund in place, etc. I'd call them financially responsible regardless of whether they have a written budget.
Dude......if they are making $6,000 a month and putting away/saving $3,000 of it, leaving $3,000 LEFT to spend on remaining needs/wants.....that's a damn BUDGET!

A budget is something that you use to TRACK cash coming in and cash going out. It's something that you have in place to ACCOUNT for where your money is going. This person in the example you provided, can ACCOUNT for where their money went.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lieqiang View Post
Wow you really can't handle someone holding a different opinion than you without going off the rails with the persecution complex can you?
No because this is stupid. You are reaching for no reason. If you see nothing wrong with a person having a written budget, why are you responding to DEBATE with me? And the argument you are using to debate AGAINST me, actually is ALIGNED with what the hell I was saying.

I can't stand when you guys argue just to argue....because you have some type of personal agenda against me because I'm not a worshipper of the stock market. It's annoying as hell. You do it, ncole1 does it, LowExpectations does it, that Insider1 guy does it....it's sickening.

Get over the fact that I'm not a worshipper of the stock market. Get over it.

"Hey look guys, Tucker99 just responded....let's go see what he says and find something (literally anything) we can disagree with and if we can't find anything, let's just make up something."
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Old 05-19-2016, 08:32 AM
 
26,156 posts, read 21,406,514 times
Reputation: 22751
I actually don't mind some of the front end stuff from Dave Ramsey. I've used his budgeting worksheet and have also worked with other people using the budget worksheets and the debt snowball. His fear of debt/credit cards is something I think it overboard and his investment assumptions and suggestions suck but I think the first couple of steps make all the sense in the world.

Writing out a budget and spending every dollar on paper before getting it was the biggest turning point in my financial life and I was saving and investing a decent amount before that. I got to the process through dave ramsey but it's certainly not his orginal idea.

Also with the debt snowball, also not his idea but I beileve for the majority of the folks it can have a higher success rate of completion attacking smallest balance first, the best thing to come of it is just like the budget. Sitting down putting all in paper and knowing exactly where you are at. That's the breakthrough that most people never do
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Old 05-19-2016, 08:34 AM
 
26,156 posts, read 21,406,514 times
Reputation: 22751
Quote:
Originally Posted by jotucker99 View Post
Dude......if they are making $6,000 a month and putting away/saving $3,000 of it, leaving $3,000 LEFT to spend on remaining needs/wants.....that's a damn BUDGET!

A budget is something that you use to TRACK cash coming in and cash going out. It's something that you have in place to ACCOUNT for where your money is going. This person in the example you provided, can ACCOUNT for where their money went.




No because this is stupid. You are reaching for no reason. If you see nothing wrong with a person having a written budget, why are you responding to DEBATE with me? And the argument you are using to debate AGAINST me, actually is ALIGNED with what the hell I was saying.

I can't stand when you guys argue just to argue....because you have some type of personal agenda against me because I'm not a worshipper of the stock market. It's annoying as hell. You do it, ncole1 does it, LowExpectations does it, that Insider1 guy does it....it's sickening.

Get over the fact that I'm not a worshipper of the stock market. Get over it.

[]"Hey look guys, Tucker99 just responded....let's go see what he says and find something (literally anything) we can disagree with and if we can't find anything, let's just make up something." [/b]


Just had to chime in and say I don't agree with the bolded, that's not s budget. I agree with most of the rest of your points in the thread if that makes you feel better
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Old 05-19-2016, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Spain
12,722 posts, read 7,504,029 times
Reputation: 22628
Quote:
Originally Posted by jotucker99 View Post
Dude......if they are making $6,000 a month and putting away/saving $3,000 of it, leaving $3,000 LEFT to spend on remaining needs/wants.....that's a damn BUDGET!

A budget is something that you use to TRACK cash coming in and cash going out. It's something that you have in place to ACCOUNT for where your money is going. This person in the example you provided, can ACCOUNT for where their money went.
It isn't a written budget, it is simple math. If you think that is a budget then it is one with a single category that says "living" and it sure as hell doesn't need to be written. They can't tell you how much they spent on food or gas, all they can tell you is the total that they spent was $3,000 because they brought home $6,000 and saved $,3000 of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jotucker99 View Post
No because this is stupid. You are reaching for no reason. If you see nothing wrong with a person having a written budget, why are you responding to DEBATE with me? And the argument you are using to debate AGAINST me, actually is ALIGNED with what the hell I was saying.

I can't stand when you guys argue just to argue....because you have some type of personal agenda against me because I'm not a worshipper of the stock market. It's annoying as hell. You do it, ncole1 does it, LowExpectations does it, that Insider1 guy does it....it's sickening.

Get over the fact that I'm not a worshipper of the stock market. Get over it.

"Hey look guys, Tucker99 just responded....let's go see what he says and find something (literally anything) we can disagree with and if we can't find anything, let's just make up something."
Persecution complex, plain and simple.

It isn't possible someone can disagree with you because they don't share the same opinion, nah you've got to derail yet another thread into jotucker the victim where others actually agree with you but are disagreeing as part of some evil cabal out to debate you for no reason. Get help.
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Old 05-19-2016, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
10,312 posts, read 7,899,473 times
Reputation: 27637
Quote:
Originally Posted by jotucker99 View Post
This argument just makes no sense, you are blaming a payment option for someone spending recklessly.

- Credit Card
- Debit Card
- Pay Pal
- Digital Wallet
- Bitcoin
- Checks
- Cash.
"One of these things is not like the others..."

A credit card, unlike the other methods of payment on your list, makes it possible to spend money you don't have. If someone is reckless with their cash, their spending spree stops when their money is gone. Not so with a credit card; they can easily rack up tens of thousands of dollars in debt and place themselves in a huge financial hole.

Choosing not to have a credit card to reduce the temptation to overspend is no different than what people struggling with non-financial temptations often do. There are certain foods I won't keep in my house, because I know I'm prone to over eating them. And no one thinks it's dumb for an alcoholic to refuse to keep booze in the house just in case guests might come over who'd like to have a drink.

Most people can learn to manage credit responsibly. I actually encourage those folks to make wise use of credit cards. But some have learned from experience that they cannot responsibly manage a line of credit, and rather than risk falling into debt they chose to remove the temptation from their lives. I don't look down on those folks; I think they are wise.
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Old 05-19-2016, 09:22 AM
 
5,342 posts, read 6,138,317 times
Reputation: 4719
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowexpectations View Post
Just had to chime in and say I don't agree with the bolded, that's not s budget. I agree with most of the rest of your points in the thread if that makes you feel better
Yeah,

that is most definitely not a budget. Living on less than you make, sure. But not a budget.
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Old 05-19-2016, 09:28 AM
 
Location: Southlake. Don't judge me.
2,885 posts, read 4,625,884 times
Reputation: 3775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aredhel View Post
"One of these things is not like the others..."

A credit card, unlike the other methods of payment on your list, makes it possible to spend money you don't have. If someone is reckless with their cash, their spending spree stops when their money is gone. Not so with a credit card; they can easily rack up tens of thousands of dollars in debt and place themselves in a huge financial hole.

Choosing not to have a credit card to reduce the temptation to overspend is no different than what people struggling with non-financial temptations often do. There are certain foods I won't keep in my house, because I know I'm prone to over eating them. And no one thinks it's dumb for an alcoholic to refuse to keep booze in the house just in case guests might come over who'd like to have a drink.

Most people can learn to manage credit responsibly. I actually encourage those folks to make wise use of credit cards. But some have learned from experience that they cannot responsibly manage a line of credit, and rather than risk falling into debt they chose to remove the temptation from their lives. I don't look down on those folks; I think they are wise.
That is very much the case. I'm no Dave Ramsey fan, but then (like almost everyone on this thread) I'm not a financial novice. As has been pointed out, if you can't control your spending and need to get yourself oriented in a generally positive direction, Dave Ramsey has some simple rules that, if you follow them, will do that. They are suboptimal, but most of them are OK (agree that his investment fund advice is awful, but then, most such advice is).

Simply put - if you are the sort of person who has discipline and tracks spending, then credit cards are far superior to debit cards. If you're not, then they're not, and you're also far more likely to be listening to Dave Ramsey.

Regarding the entire budgeting thing - tempest in a teapot. I guess we can argue if "spend less than you earn" is a "budget" or not. I certainly do NOT have a "budget", written or otherwise, where I categorize my expenses and all that. I max out retirement savings every year and after that have "enough" to meet expenses and pay down debts on time without incurring any new debt, and toss at least a little extra into "savings" beyond that. If one were to say I have a "budget", the "outflow" side would have one bucket called "retirement savings" and another called "everything else".

It all gets back to the Wilkins Micawber quote, out of Charles Dickens' David Copperfield
Quote:
“Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pound ought and six, result misery.”
Everything else outside of that is technical detail, really.
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