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Old 04-01-2012, 10:37 PM
 
4,043 posts, read 7,424,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestyn View Post
If you plug your numbers into a mortgage calculator it comes out with an $800,000 home, which I think would be crazy to do. I wouldn't be comfortable going above the 2.5 x income that someone mentioned earlier.

I would caution you about upgrading the neighborhood too much. I understand that you feel you are not fitting in with the neighbors and want to upgrade. Just be aware if you upgrade too much, your new neighbors will have much more expensive lifestyles and your expenses will go up accordingly if you want to join their activities. The more expensive the neighborhood the more expensive it is to fit in. My sister did this when she moved into a fancy gated community. She made friends with all the neighbor wives and started wanting to shop at the same stores and take expensive trips with them out of town.
Yes, I know - that's what we get too when we plug in everything. 800,000 - what an insanity. I wonder sometimes how many people actually go for as much as the bank approves them for.

No, even if we were to "upgrade" the neighborhood, I would not fall into the traps you're suggesting because it is not my personality. I am the frugal type and I don't expect to take trips out of town with neighbors, let alone expensive trips. Asking them over for coffee, cake and some interesting conversation? Sure. Shopping together at Neiman Marcus?
Not a chance.

In such a scenario, I WOULD worry about my kids seeing too many gadgets, toys and stuff in the neighborhood and expecting the same thing too.

But again: where in the world are those people educated and wise enough to know that just because you have money, does not mean you should dump it on all sorts of frivolous stuff for your kids? Where are those who invest in education, teach manners and humility, and avoid dumb consumerism at the same time?

Let me know and we're moving in.
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Old 04-01-2012, 10:41 PM
 
Location: Texas
44,256 posts, read 64,216,996 times
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If I made $165k between TWO people and I had two kids, I wouldn't touch a house more than $350k.

That's good with 20% down being 70k. You can do more to feel better about the equity in the house and have a smaller monthly payment (which will allow you flexibility or you can pay extra on the principle when you feel like it).

Then again, I am committed to putting a third of my income away in savings/investments...not going to build wealth by paying some big bank interest.
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Old 04-01-2012, 11:45 PM
 
4,043 posts, read 7,424,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
If I made $165k between TWO people and I had two kids, I wouldn't touch a house more than $350k.

That's good with 20% down being 70k. You can do more to feel better about the equity in the house and have a smaller monthly payment (which will allow you flexibility or you can pay extra on the principle when you feel like it).

Then again, I am committed to putting a third of my income away in savings/investments...not going to build wealth by paying some big bank interest.
This is where I am too with my comfort level. 350,000 top (my husband say 400,000 top but I disagree) - and yes, we would like to make double payments on the mortgage to be done with debt as soon as possible.

We're hoping to find something in the lower 300,000's (maybe even a foreclosure) in a 300,000-400,000 or so neighborhood. Would love to be the smallest/most modest house in the neighborhood, if you can even talk about "modesty" at this price level for a house in an Atlanta suburb (they all look so luxurious to me);
but such houses, at the lower end of a neighborhood range, seem to go very quickly and are not easy to find.

We would basically look to "upgrade" from a 250,000-300,000 neighborhood to one that would range from 300,000-400,000 or so, with us being at the lower end of the neighborhood. This might help with the "fit in" part or it might not. One can only hope.

I was just curious as to what people would find "financially responsible" with our parameters and expenses.

What Mr. Rational suggested (225,000) we could not do as this amount would not buy us aspects that we consider very important to quality of life, including top public school, reasonably close to metro area and amenities, and 4 BR minimum as we both work from home a lot and we need an office.
It would be a very financially responsible and cautious choice indeed - but it is simply not enough.

What stan4 suggests, 350,000 top is what we consider "responsible enough".
It was interesting to see how other people would approach the same situation.

Thanks so much everyone, this has been helpful.

Last edited by syracusa; 04-01-2012 at 11:55 PM..
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Old 04-02-2012, 07:28 AM
 
Location: NJ
12,283 posts, read 35,633,913 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
If I made $165k between TWO people and I had two kids, I wouldn't touch a house more than $350k.

That's good with 20% down being 70k. You can do more to feel better about the equity in the house and have a smaller monthly payment (which will allow you flexibility or you can pay extra on the principle when you feel like it).

Then again, I am committed to putting a third of my income away in savings/investments...not going to build wealth by paying some big bank interest.
totally agree. $350K was my thought as well.
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:26 AM
 
643 posts, read 2,380,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
No, they didn't. I was there, discreetly watching every move from the window.



I understand what you are saying as perceptions form on both sides. However, "weird for not going there by themselves"?
I don't think so. Everyone who was there had been specifically INVITED at the BDay party. Nobody just "dropped by".
In the scenario I described (and which is 100% the way I described it - you can take my word for it or not), I would never consider the ball to be in the kids' court.
It was in that mother's court and she chose to do absolutely nothing with it.


And no, my children never say "we don't play video games" or other similar things because they DO like to play them. Except that they usually play them at other people's houses, when they get a chance.

It is true that we don't have them in the house ourselves - but I never forbid them from playing when they go elsewhere. For them, such aspects are simply not an issue. They don't ask for them - but they are glad to play when they see one here and there. For example, they've seen the WII, they played, they liked it, but not so much as to ask for one. Then why buy one if they are not "Jonesing" for it?

Of course, one day this may change and we might even buy one when time comes; but I certainly would not mind being in a neighborhood where other parents have books all over the place instead of video games, so we would not end up looking so weird in our own kids' eyes one day.

But for now...believe me, the "issue" of video games or other popular things like that is NOT an actual issue. Besides, kids around here seem to be more into electric scooters, sports/balls and the like; all perfectly fine.
My son is 6, my daughter is three - they are both normal kids, attracted to "sparkly" kid stuff and I can assure you they don't come across as "snooty".

Generally speaking, what bothers me is the suggestion that in such a neighborhood, I am the one who should be on the "defensive" and "apologetic" for my possible "elitist crimes" such as cultivating books instead of video games, saying Hello and Good Bye at the bus station, being gracious enough to welcome newcomers with cookies, or not peppering my speech with "...and I was like" every 2 seconds.

We're looking for a neighborhood where such "crimes" would be forgiven and would not make us "weird suspects". Also, where going to pick up my son at the bus stop would not give me such an unpleasant gut feeling of "out-of-place-ness" every time I show up.
And can this neighborhood not cost an arm and a leg too?

It sounds like a tall order, I know.

Funny thing is that the family who sold the house to the guys across the street were the only ones we felt a real connection with.
Great people all around. But with our luck, they packed up and moved after only a few years in this neighborhood. Interestingly enough, as they did not exactly look like a great fit for the neighborhood either.
I didn't suggest you should be apologetic, defensive, or were committing elitist crimes. The point I was trying to make is to try to be sure of the problem before you move. If its not your neighbors, its your family, and moving will cost a lot of money and you'll still have the same problem. You may want to ask the neighbors why your kids weren't invited. If all the other neighbors invite each other over and your family doesn't, that could be it. I still think there is an issue. If their parents think you're weird, they may tell their kids not go hang out with your kids. Your kids were gawking at something in their driveway but didn't go over. To me, that's weird. Most people aren't frugal. Just as a previous poster suggested what happens when the women in your new expensive community go shopping at high end stores or go to Starbucks, but you're limited to having cake and coffee at home. You don't exactly fit in with them.
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by md21722 View Post
Your kids were gawking at something in their driveway but didn't go over. To me, that's weird.
Well...there you go. You can already see difference in values at work. The two of us clearly have such differences.

No, that is NOT weird. Not even a tad bit.
The kids were "gawking" because they are kids - and because kids will "gawk" when they see an exotic animal. Go figure.

What was weird...in fact not weird, just boorish and rude, was the total lack of sensitivity coming from the adults who clearly saw the children wanting to take a look from their own lawn, but lacked the minimum decency to ask them to come over and take a look. My son even said "mom I cannot go uninvited"; and I absolutely agree with him, 100%. He was clearly the adult in this whole thing.

Especially when those children are your neighbors' children, especially when their mom invited YOUR son into her yard and house - and he came in and played.

Your suggestion that it was my kids who were at fault because "they didn't go on their own", even if it was clear they were not wanted there, further reinforces my gut feeling that we need to NOT be in neighborhoods with people who think like this.

Those are simply differences in values; and I am a firm believer in being surrounded by people who have values and lifestyles as similar as possible to yours.

There is a limit to how wonderful "diversity" is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by md21722 View Post
Most people aren't frugal.
I know - and this is very unfortunate; part of the reason why the country is in the economic state that it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by md21722 View Post
Just as a previous poster suggested what happens when the women in your new expensive community go shopping at high end stores or go to Starbucks, but you're limited to having cake and coffee at home. You don't exactly fit in with them.
You make it sound like America has only two types of people: rude, insensitive individuals with questionable manners like the ones I described (because this is exactly how people who behave like this are) or frivolous Desperate House Wives who spend their lives shopping at expensive stores.

I am confident there are beautiful shades of all sorts of other colors right in between and that there are many other categories of Americans out there.
In the neighborhood we buy, we will be looking for just that: decency.

At 300,000-350,000 range in this area I don't really see the signs of frivolity and consumerism you suggested, but I also hope we will also be able to eliminate the poor attitudes resulted from an overall deficient upbringing.

Are you serious when you say I should just ask that family why my kids weren't invited? You've got to be kidding me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by md21722 View Post
The point I was trying to make is to try to be sure of the problem before you move. If its not your neighbors, its your family
I know what the problem is. It's both my neighbors AND my family. We're different - that's all. They perceive us as "different" but they don't know what to do or how to act with that difference. However, the most important difference is that I would have never failed to ask THEIR children (ANY child for that matter, looking across the lawn!) to come over and take a look at the animal, whereas they failed to do that.

I don't care what differences you perceive to be between your family and X family. If their children are looking at an exotic animal you planted right in your driveway to have a party, and your driveway is just a few feet away from THEIR driveway - from where they are clearly trying to catch a glimpse, you ask them over to take a look.

If you don't - you're insensitive, rude, boorish, self-absorbed and poorly brought up.
It's just as simple as that.

PS: I think, however, we're getting off the financial topic of this thread. The underlying social ramifications belong in other forums.
So I'd rather keep it to the "what house could easily be afforded given X parameters".

At least two people suggested that a cap should be placed at 350,000.
I had the same feeling.

Last edited by syracusa; 04-02-2012 at 10:20 AM..
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:27 AM
 
505 posts, read 715,258 times
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Perhaps you should rent in a different neighborhood and see how things go. Perhaps a bit more expensive if you think that will make a difference. I actually moved 4 years ago after owning a house for only 2 years because I didn't feel the neighborhood was a good fit for me. I felt like an outsider. I bought a house for about 25k more in a differnt neighborhood and it is a world of diffference. I am so much more happy. I don't think it was so much the money difference as just a different mix of people.

You sound like someone who went out of your way to be friendly, but sometimes no matter what you do it just isn't a good fit.

Editted to add: I think sometimes neighborhoods aren't overly friendly to renters. They figure the renter has no vested interest in the neighborhood. They are not worth getting to know, because they well could be gone tomorrow. If there is any neighborhood pride in lawns the renters are probably not going to do much upkeep, not like a person who owns the house etc.
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Old 04-02-2012, 01:05 PM
 
4,043 posts, read 7,424,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua Blue View Post
Perhaps you should rent in a different neighborhood and see how things go. Perhaps a bit more expensive if you think that will make a difference. I actually moved 4 years ago after owning a house for only 2 years because I didn't feel the neighborhood was a good fit for me. I felt like an outsider. I bought a house for about 25k more in a differnt neighborhood and it is a world of diffference. I am so much more happy. I don't think it was so much the money difference as just a different mix of people.

You sound like someone who went out of your way to be friendly, but sometimes no matter what you do it just isn't a good fit.

Editted to add: I think sometimes neighborhoods aren't overly friendly to renters. They figure the renter has no vested interest in the neighborhood. They are not worth getting to know, because they well could be gone tomorrow. If there is any neighborhood pride in lawns the renters are probably not going to do much upkeep, not like a person who owns the house etc.

Yes, you are right. However, I can tell you that we have been taking good care of this place because, until recently, we were convinced we will buy it. The owners have a pretty yard and we are taking care of it, the lawn is mowed, our house looks as good, if not better, than many other houses around here - mainly because the owners themselves had it in very nice condition and we are committed to keeping it this way; so my feeling is it has nothing to do with our renter status as many people got the impression we will stay here anyway.

Besides, the people who have exhibited this overtly unfriendly attitude are the newest-comers. We were here well before they came and I doubt they adjusted their attitude based on finding out we are "merely" renting.
I have not had such episodes with other neighbors, in fact my kids have had play-dates in the neighborhood and other people have behaved perfectly OK, though not necessarily very friendly, towards us.
All in all, I just do not get the feeling that we have a lifestyle, values or attitudes that are similar with those of most people around here.

Right now kids are small - and child play is just that: child play - regardless of how different the children's families are. Kids are kids and they love to play.
But later on, the incompatibility between our lifestyle and values and those of families around here may make a lot of difference in the lives of our children.

As for what you described above, I think we are in your exact same situation four years ago; it is my gut feeling that going a bit (not a lot) further up in price might make a world of difference.

I finally understood that we are not house-hunting but neighborhood-hunting. I have seen houses in the low 200's in this area that I would be perfectly happy with. However it is apparent that we would be such misfits in those neighborhoods that we are not even considering this range anymore.

Unfortunately, neighborhood-hunting seems to be a very hard and fuzzy process - much harder than just looking for a house.
You can ask all the info you want about a house, but nobody will ever be able to inform you about the neighborhood until you live there and are able to inform yourself. The best you can do in the beginning is "guestimate" and go by stereotypes, as you cannot try out tons of neighborhoods by renting, like you try on shoes at the mall.

Thank you for your input, your experience was really interesting to read about.
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Old 04-03-2012, 06:48 AM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, NC, formerly NoVA and Phila
9,767 posts, read 15,739,138 times
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I think you can go up to $400K comfortably since your monthly expenses are so low. With $80K down + $10K available for closing costs and a $320K mortgage, you should be able to keep monthly mortgage payment to about $2500 + taxes and insurance (maybe $500 more per month) on a 15-year mortgage. That should still leave you with about $2K each month for other unexpected or new expenses in the future.
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Old 04-03-2012, 06:55 AM
 
2,729 posts, read 5,355,975 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
If you had the following scenario:

Family of 4 (two small children)
Dual earner family (husband making about 20,000-30,000 more than the wife)
Total family income: 165,000.
Area: Atlanta
Debt: zero
Educational level of spouses: both graduate degrees


1) What house price would you consider responsible, comfortable and perfectly affordable for such a family? What price range would you look for given this situation?
The family will have somewhere between 60,000-90,000 max to put down if they decide to buy a house. (Inheritance from family or other chunks of money fallen from the sky NOT assumed; all this money is hard-earned and saved cash).

2) Also, what house price do you think people in such a situation typically go for? The second is not a question about what would YOU do, but what you think MOST/A LOT of people in this situation go for?
(Please do not tell me "everybody's different"; yes, I know everybody's different - but I also know most people are not THAT different because if they were they wouldn't operate along trends; most neighborhoods seem to have a unique, distinct flavor, with a certain TYPE of individuals in it).
So I would also like to hear about perceived trends (trends perceived by you, personally).

Thank you so much for your insight.
The best rule of thumb I have ever run across is this: NEVER spend more than 25% of your take-home pay on housing. EVER.

Based on your income, I'm going to guess that your take-home pay is about $10,000 per month. That means that your total housing - mortgage principle & interest, escrows, and utilities - should not be more than $2500 per month.

Unfortunately, millions of Americans made the mistake of listening to mortgage loan officers telling them, "You can afford that house!" And now they're paying for it.
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