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Old 08-19-2014, 08:38 AM
 
Location: Paranoid State
13,044 posts, read 13,865,519 times
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I was in my early 20s when I realized Social Security would not be there for me, so I would have to save for my own retirement.

In the early 1980s, I worked for a company that provided training to members of Congress & their senior staff on what was then these "new-fangled personal computers." It was enlightening to the members of Congress & select staff. It was also enlightening to me.

Part of the training program involved a custom software program we put together that worked like this. It modeled Social Security inflows & outflows. It put together pretty graphs & pie charts. It relied on actuarially sound data & forecasts. It showed the impending tidal wave of "Baby Boom" retirees... by sheer numbers. It showed the number of people who will be working to support those retirees, both on the then-actual number of human beings already born (and forecast for their earnings & SS contributions) and the number of human beings not-yet born but expected to be born, etc.

As you might imagine, the graphs showed a surplus of inflows over outflows, and then a deficit of inflows relative to outflow... and that deficit grew & grew & swamped the Federal Government.

Shock! Horror! Disbelief!

Part of the training allowed the members of Congress & their senior staff to alter the normal parameters you might imagine: retirement age, FICA % paid, FICA $ cap, means-test the benefits... even immigration rates.

As you might imagine, the graphs changed... yet they ultimately still show a deficit of inflows relative to outflows that swamp the Federal Government ...

More Shock! More Horror! More Disbelief!


Of course, the thing that couldn't change was the number of people in each age cohort: they've already been born.

The end result, as you might imagine, was nothing. Members of Congress & staff learned a bit about computers, but rarely has Congress actually, you now, done something about the impending SS problem.


Everyone who is currently drawing SS, and everyone who is eligible to draw SS over the course of the next 67 years, has already been born. We can count them. We could write their names (SS numbers) on a figurative/virtual piece of paper.

Everyone who currently contributes into the SS system to pay for the above retirees for the next many years has already been born & we can write their names down, too.

Everyone who will begin to contribute into the SS system over the next 18 years has also already been born.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the system is broken: it takes an actuary. Actuarial Science is actually pretty good at forecasting the future. "An actuary is like a CPA but with less personality," the old joke goes.


****************

For all elected representatives, it is ever so much easier to kick the can down the road and not deal with the problem. Vocal advocates for retirees such as AARP mobilize when there is a whiff of a threat to their constituency, and elected representatives, eager to please such an active donor constituency & lobby & voting bloc, does its best imitation of an ostrich.


****************

The same problem exists with public employee union pensions (& medical plans) and many large private employee union pensions (& medical as well).

By "problem" I mean kicking the day of reckoning down the road to the next term or the next set of boards of directors.

For example, during its final 5 years prior to going bankrupt, guess who was the largest supplier to General Motors? Steel companies? Nope. Auto Parts suppliers? Nope. GM's largest supplier was Blue Cross. When a major manufacturer's largest supplier is a medical provider (especially for its retirees), you know you have a problem.

The problem is worse for public employee pensions than private employee pensions because the accounting rules are different. After several private pensions went bankrupt in the 1960s and early 1970s, Congress passed ERISA (1974), which, as amended, brings more sound accounting to private pensions but it does not apply to public pensions. It does not apply to Social Security either. It doesn't apply to public sector pensions because public sector unions lobbied to prevent actuary-calculated sound accounting. Why? it would reduce the pot of $$ available for current compensation & benefits. Far better to just kick the can down the road.

I suggest picking up a copy of "While America Aged: How Pension Debts Ruined General Motors, Stopped the NYC Subways, Bankrupted San Diego, and Loom as the Next Financial Crisis" By Roger Lowenstein. If you prefer, the book is available as an audio book you can download from your local public library & play on your iPod.

Last edited by SportyandMisty; 08-19-2014 at 09:16 AM..
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Old 08-19-2014, 08:38 AM
 
Location: California side of the Sierras
11,162 posts, read 7,636,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewfromutah View Post
It's not short-sighted at all. 401k mutual funds aren't the only investment tool out there, and not everyone wants to wait until 59.5 to access their nestegg. Not to mention, MOST companies 401k funds are crap and a big chunk of your return will be eaten up by hidden fees that you're never told about. If you're set on staying with your company for a while and even more set on working a regular career until you're 59.5, then I guess maxing out your contribution to take advantage of the match would be a fine option.

I contributed for a while when I had an office job, but I plan to retire well before 59.5 and would rather have my money available to me to invest and withdraw on my own terms.

It's true that high fees plague many 401k plans. However, they are not enough to overcome an immediate 80% return on your money. So, this is a good argument to invest enough to get the match and then invest elsewhere.

Your money is not locked up until 59.5. People can access their tax-deferred monies penalty free at any age by electing to withdraw based on 72t rules. If you are retiring early, 72t rules are no hardship. It's more or less what you would want to withdraw anyway.
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Old 08-19-2014, 08:43 AM
 
Location: California side of the Sierras
11,162 posts, read 7,636,263 times
Reputation: 12523
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dub D View Post
So you seriously don't think there will be another massive economic drop in the next 30 years? History has shown one of two things will happen. Another drop or another major war will happen by 2044. I'm not being a conspiracy guy, its just how this country works.

Also, can you say for sure the 1.80 I'd be getting in 30 years or so will be worth more than 1 today?

I'm planning on buying a home next year. I purposely found a job where the cost of living is much cheaper. Cheaper meaning half of where I was working and where my temp job (last day there is today) is located. I want to pay off that house in 20 years. I want to work part-time when I get past 55. Work at a something I don't hate.

I already got my parents a home and I have money in the bank for a down payment for a new home. Once I work 6 months with this job, I'll be able to get a loan approved.

Whatever money a retirement account makes, it pales in comparison to the interest on a mortgage. I much rather pay off a home than sit back and wait til I'm 60.

I've definitely made some selfish financial choices with traveling. I've traveled alot and I wouldn't take it back. I will always remember going to Pompeii and seeing a tour of older people struggle walking around. Steep uneven grounds with a bunch of potholes. I want to see the world while I can get around without any physical issues. I've slept in some GOD AWFUL beds and couches, I can deal with it now but at 60...not a chance. Life experience means more now than retirement.
If dollars invested today do not grow over the next 30 years, it will be because the world has undergone at least one substantial economic change. What sort of event will that be? One you can prepare for? My inclination is to think no.

Of course you should travel while you are young. You should do many enjoyable things. You should also save/invest for the future. It does not have to be one or the other.
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Old 08-19-2014, 08:45 AM
 
16,431 posts, read 22,196,724 times
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Thank you, I didn't know that! Unfortunately our AGI disqualifies us...
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Old 08-19-2014, 08:55 AM
 
18,547 posts, read 15,584,312 times
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Originally Posted by tiredatwork View Post
With a paid-off home and one (or two) social security checks to live; it is more than enough for retirement. Maybe the American are smart so they invest their "retirement" into a paid-off home instead of trying to throw all their hard earned money into the stock market that can vaporize 50% of the value at age 60? My parents belong to those 1/3 with no IRA, 401k but they have a house that they almost pay off, one government pension check and one SS check.
Depends on location. In many of the big metro areas, the COL is high enough that living on SS is prohibitive unless you take a boarder/tenant into part of the house. If you're paying $12,000/year on property taxes, you cannot live on SS alone!

In that case, you either have to continue working, take in a boarder/tenant, or move to a low COL region.

The property taxes in the HCOL areas are often more than RENT would be in a LCOL area. In my home state a lot of smaller towns have houses for rent for $800/month.

This is why in some HCOL areas people say they can never own their home - they just rent it from the local government!

Last edited by ncole1; 08-19-2014 at 09:04 AM..
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:05 AM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,455,098 times
Reputation: 9074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petunia 100 View Post
If dollars invested today do not grow over the next 30 years, it will be because the world has undergone at least one substantial economic change. What sort of event will that be? One you can prepare for? My inclination is to think no.

Of course you should travel while you are young. You should do many enjoyable things. You should also save/invest for the future. It does not have to be one or the other.


??? If you are poor it does have to be one or the other. Duh.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:07 AM
 
27 posts, read 73,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
??? If you are poor it does have to be one or the other. Duh.
Not really. There are many ways to travel and earn money at the same time. Two examples would be teaching English abroad (Korea pays well) or WWOOF.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:11 AM
 
Location: California side of the Sierras
11,162 posts, read 7,636,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
??? If you are poor it does have to be one or the other. Duh.
Why are you assuming Dub D is poor?
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:12 AM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,455,098 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffon652 View Post
Most non savers will counter their habit of not saving with something along the lines of "Well I wan't to enjoy my life! So I'm not worried about saving." Even if we go by that argument it doesn't make much sense to not save.

Here is an example:

I save anywhere from 35-41% of my gross income every year. This will allow me to retire very comfortably at 48. And currently I don't really skimp on how I live my life.

But let's assume that someone can take an extra two weeks of vacation every year because they save less then me. Assuming they started working at 21, from 21-48 that gives them an extra 54 weeks of vacation then me. However, the price they will pay is they will work well into their 60's for this short sighted thinking.

On the other hard, I will have made up for not taking those 54 weeks of vacation by the time I'm 49. And from 49-65 (assuming the non saver retires at 65) I will have an extra 862 weeks of vacation over the non-saver because I decided to save! Even if the non saver retires at 65; chances are his retirement income will be much lower then mine. So even when we are both retired I will enjoy my retirement much more then the non saver. So not saving makes no sense even if you try to make the "enjoy life" argument.

And the remaining non-savers will counter their habit of not saving with something along the lines of "Well how much did you expect someone making minimum wage and student loan payments to save?"
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:13 AM
 
18,547 posts, read 15,584,312 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewfromutah View Post
Not really. There are many ways to travel and earn money at the same time. Two examples would be teaching English abroad (Korea pays well) or WWOOF.
Not everyone has the patience, talent, desire, or proclivity to do that, though, and the more attractive programs are often competitive as well. In addition, many have family commitments that constrain them in such a way that they can't be away for more than a few days at a time.
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