Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Cigur, I’ve followed your posts on other threads – so I know what you’ve been dealing with.
I can only pass along what I’ve learned.
WILL your mom outlive the money? If she DOES and you can’t protect any – there just won’t be anything to inherit. Sorry.
If NOT -- then you’ll have some inheritance – AFTER all her bills are paid.
Also is this ALL she has?
Obviously care cost – and your mom’s prognosis will determine whether she will outlive – or run out – of money.
Have you looked into what her care might realistically cost? You need those numbers.
Have you looked at options for keep the costs down – friends, family, neighbors etc.?
(I know from your other posts that’s not likely, but youv’e got to keep exploring that if it’s at all possible.)
I’ll try to keep it basic.
The Medicaid look back period is FIVE YEARS.
Any money transferred within that time will have to be spend on your mom’s care…or technically it doesn’t HAVE to be THAT money, but can be money equal to that amount.
There’s also a penalty period that’s basically equal to the length of time that transferred money would have paid for. Medicaid uses a formula equal to what the state deems is monthly costs for care. If you transfer 60K, and Medicaid determines care costs 10K a month, your mom would have to sit out – or wouldn’t be eligible for Medicaid for -- 6 months.. 10K a month into 60K = 6 months). The penalty period STARTS when your mom would otherwise have been eligible except for that transfer.
I’d ask your mom’s eldercare attorney (who should know about asset protection and Medicaid, not just someone who does wills and trusts) about transferring an amount, but keeping an equal amount in mom’s name.
Obviously, it’s best and most ideal to not apply for Medicaid until after that that five year look back period is over. Then the money transferred isn’t even an issue. But sorry to say – you likely don’t have five years.
MAYBE with her having a spouse there MIGHT be some spousal protections that might help you. I don’t’ see that but…you can ask. AND MAYBE there are other ways for you to benefit….for example if she lived with you and you charged her rent, that would be HER expense., or maybe if YOU lived with HER, she’d pay the rent or mortgage and YOU’d live without housing costs. You might be able to get some “benefit” from doing something like that….
ALL THIS SAID….yes your mom would want you to have that money if something happens to her. That’s clearly why any of us make anyone our beneficiary. UNFORTUNATELY, your mom may needs that money for her care…and there may not be anything left for you to inherit. That’s the truth of it.
Would I still do everything I’ve suggested – heck yeah.
-- get care costs projections - -and prognosis on how your long mom has to live (which of course is only a guess.)
-- see the eldercare attorney – with asset protection/Medicaid application experience
-- get creative
As for
Quote:
Don't try to moralize when there is no moral issue here. Asset protection is a very real investment consideration, and people do it all of the time. Multi-millionaires set up all kinds of trusts to protect their assets upon their deaths so their heirs don't have to pay estate taxes, but for some reason my trying to protect a paltry $60,000 that my mom wanted me to have (note that she made me her beneficiary on her own accord when I was still a minor) in the first place is somehow morally and ethically repugnant?
For most people I’d say 60K is NOT a paltry amount. And yes she wanted you to have the money but unfortunately she’s not dying in a way that might allow you to keep all of it. She needs it for HERSELF. The reason your mom MAY have to spend all of her Roth IRA that she worked so hard to save and invest is because it’s hers and should be used for her as long as SHE IS here. It’s unfortunate – but IF you’re not able to protect or inherit any of it -- you’ll have to know you’ll be OK without it
That said, don’t’ get distracted by critics. You need your wits and energy for you and your mom.
Since you now know the look back period is FIVE YEARS. You COULD look into protecting your DAD’S assets – if that hasn’t been done already. However:
1) I get that‘s not THE priority right now but I would get on it as soon as possible, because if HE has anything he wants you and your siblings to inherit you’ve GOT to get that FIVE YEAR look back period going. And even then you may not make it long enough to save everything that’s protected. You see how not being prepared is affecting your mom’s assets.
2) I know from your posts he’s been difficult to deal with. I hate to say it but unless he starts cooperating with you, you could have an even WORSE mess with your dad’s finances, because he likely has more in more places.
Your mother is old enough to collect Social Security benefits either based on her husband's earnings or her own, whichever produces the highest income for her. You should make an appointment to discuss this with someone in your local Social Security office as soon as possible. Her application can even be back dated a few months, I believe.
.
They can go back six months from date of application.
For most people I’d say 60K is NOT a paltry amount. And yes she wanted you to have the money but unfortunately she’s not dying in a way that might allow you to keep all of it. She needs it for HERSELF. The reason your mom MAY have to spend all of her Roth IRA that she worked so hard to save and invest is because it’s hers and should be used for her as long as SHE IS here. It’s unfortunate – but IF you’re not able to protect or inherit any of it -- you’ll have to know you’ll be OK without it
rdflk, thanks for your extensive write up on this issue. I will definitely be making another appointment with my elder law attorney.
The real motivation behind me protecting the assets is not greed, but rather that I'm really not sure that I'll be ok without it.
If I can't convince my father to move to my city in time before my mom's condition deteriorates to a point where she can't relocate, I may lose my job over this because I feel like I need to be there for her. And if she lingers in a shape where we can't take care of her in the home anymore, several months of hospice/nursing home would wipe out all of that money before Medicaid kicks in. Then I would have no job, no "inheritance" (in reality that is my safety net, not inheritance in a classic sense), and worst case, I could be out on the streets with no family left in the United States if my father decides to return to his birth country with the remaining assets, or best case he stays in the US and I am at his complete mercy until I can find new employment in my field.
I know I must sound like I am catastrophizing, but this fear keeps me awake at night, and I'm afraid I'll make what choice is best for me out of this fear and not be there for her at the end when she needs me most, and have to live with a lifetime of guilt.
A good solution for you would be to return to your father's birth country and live with him until you can get off on your own two feet. That way you won't be in the streets.
while i am not a fan of dumping ones responsibility on the tax payers there are work arounds that allow you to keep some .
there are ways of protecting 1/2 the assets through the use of loans. an elder care attorney can guide you.
it works like this
"the advanced elder law technique, used to protect assets at the last minute, is called the “gift and loan” strategy. Here’s how it works. Let’s assume, for the purposes of our example, that the nursing home costs $10,000 a month. When mom goes into the nursing home, we gift one-half of the nest egg, in this case one-half of $300,000, or $150,000, to her children. Then we lend the other $150,000 to the children and they execute a promissory note agreeing to repay the $150,000 in fifteen monthly payments of $10,000 per month, together with a modest amount of interest. Now we apply for Medicaid benefits. Medicaid will impose a penalty period (i.e., they will refuse to pay) for 15 months on the grounds that the gift of $150,000 could have been used to pay for mom’s care for 15 months. Medicaid ignores the loan since it was not a gift. It is going to be paid back, with interest, according to the terms of the promissory note. What happens is that the fifteen loan repayment installments will be used to pay for mom’s nursing home care during the penalty period. Just when the loan repayments are finished, the penalty period expires and Medicaid begins to pick up the tab. Lo and behold, the children get to keep the $150,000 gift and mom has saved some of the inheritance for her children.
Also known as “half-a-loaf planning”, this technique has been approved in most states. And, of course, everyone knows what half-a-loaf is better than, right?"
Don't worry, the people who are reading you the moral riot act will pursue an asset protection strategy when the shoe is on that particular foot.
Consult an elder care attorney. There are a few good ones and many bad ones. I interviewed several before finding a good one. A reasonable test would be to see if the attorney knows about the gift-and-loan strategy described by mathjak.
whats interesting is many states have partnership LTC plans like ours which insure you for 3 years , require no asset shifting , protect the income of the stay at home spouse and then put you on special medicaid with allowences for the above and no look back.
it is called extended medicaid and in the end the state dumps you on the tax payers anyway while preserving your assets for your spouse and heirs . kind of ironic when you think about it.
we have been waiting 4 weeks now to be approved for a policy. they go through your medical history with a fine tooth comb.
we met with an estate attorney a few months ago to discuss needs and strategys and there is a lot that can be done if you get caught at the last miinute.
we opted for a ny partnership plan with gensworth.
ny , ct and florida are very big on negotiating medicaid terms as far as an acceptable amount a stay at home spouse is willing to pay without a change in lifestyle.
our attorney said he has not had one court case where medicaid has sued ,everything is negotiated out today.
but that only applys to a spouse,not heirs.
Last edited by mathjak107; 08-24-2014 at 03:49 AM..
rdflk, thanks for your extensive write up on this issue. I will definitely be making another appointment with my elder law attorney.
The real motivation behind me protecting the assets is not greed, but rather that I'm really not sure that I'll be ok without it.
If I can't convince my father to move to my city in time before my mom's condition deteriorates to a point where she can't relocate, I may lose my job over this because I feel like I need to be there for her. And if she lingers in a shape where we can't take care of her in the home anymore, several months of hospice/nursing home would wipe out all of that money before Medicaid kicks in. Then I would have no job, no "inheritance" (in reality that is my safety net, not inheritance in a classic sense), and worst case, I could be out on the streets with no family left in the United States if my father decides to return to his birth country with the remaining assets, or best case he stays in the US and I am at his complete mercy until I can find new employment in my field.
I know I must sound like I am catastrophizing, but this fear keeps me awake at night, and I'm afraid I'll make what choice is best for me out of this fear and not be there for her at the end when she needs me most, and have to live with a lifetime of guilt.
I'm going to add a couple other things. First...spend down should not be that bad considering Dad is still in the picture.
Second...take the money...and do for the following:
1. Burial expenses. Prepay this. This is an expense you are going to have. It cost us about $8k to bury my grandmother in Colorado. That was the cost from her hospice bed in her home to the mortuary to the final resting spot.
2. Buy mom a car.
3. Furnish mom's house...time for new tvs, appliances, couches, bedroom sets, jewelry, etc.
4. Remodel a bathroom, new roof, new carpet, paint, whatevs...remodel the family home.
Of course speak to your attorney.
Lots of people are giving you flack...the fact is, you are not in a unique situation, you are not doing anything "illegal", and most of all...at least you are there for your mom.
I just wanted to send you hugs and blessings. Please don't let the "certain ones" make you feel bad. There seems to be a few on here who make it their hobby or mission, don't let their negative thoughts hurt you or take energy you need for your Mom. You need to have a clear thought pattern, action plan and no FEAR ( False evidence appearing real).
I am glad you got some great advice from mathjak107, rdflk,midwestlaxer and others.( thank you to those who took the time to help with advice in any way, this must be a difficult position as a caretaker to be in ) Take the advice that will help you, read, and make a plan. Be there for your Mom and I pray God will be there for you both in your time of need. I haven't read your other posts but if you haven't posted on the care-giving part of forum maybe they can give you advice and other support you will need.
Last edited by AngelWingDesigns; 08-24-2014 at 07:15 AM..
Reason: sp error
A good solution for you would be to return to your father's birth country and live with him until you can get off on your own two feet. That way you won't be in the streets.
I'm not going to a flea-bitten third world country . I worked hard to get a graduate degree and a good job, and it's absolutely absurd that everything should collapse because of something through no fault of my own or my family
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
