Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
That's a fundamental principle of the United States that dates back to the 17th century.
The problem in the United States is that there is no accountability for the poor to oversee the education and socialization of their children. If a child is a behavior problem in school and refuses to learn, that's not rich people causing the problem and it's not the school system causing the problem.
Since no one acts on the responsibility of raising these children, we are seeing multiple generations of uncontrolled children and adults. Who cannot break the cycle they were raised in. And whom will need financial assistance all of their lives.
Since no one acts on the responsibility of raising these children, we are seeing multiple generations of uncontrolled children and adults. Who cannot break the cycle they were raised in. And whom will need financial assistance all of their lives.
It's an equation you can't drive into the libertarian mind without - or with - a pile driver. Education and child wellness and social support are expensive, yes. But not nearly as expensive as the consequences of their absence or insufficiency. The problem being that Joe Selfmade Libertarian can see the tax bill for schools and social services, but never an accounting of the downstream costs (that are, of course, entirely the fault of those unworthy people).
I have a relative who provides a preschool therapy that is very labor-intensive, requires highly trained practitioners and is consequently quite expensive, usually paid for with state funds or insurance. However, the result is a high percentage of children who join mainstream life, including self-support and tax paying, instead of becoming costly wards of a lifetime support system. That's a bit of an extreme niche, but good basic education, nutrition and welfare are no less effective - and proven to be so. Just not to Joe, who knows poor people are just never going to appreciate anything but another handout, and don't cost him a dime, thank god.
It's an equation you can't drive into the libertarian mind without - or with - a pile driver. Education and child wellness and social support are expensive, yes. But not nearly as expensive as the consequences of their absence or insufficiency. The problem being that Joe Selfmade Libertarian can see the tax bill for schools and social services, but never an accounting of the downstream costs (that are, of course, entirely the fault of those unworthy people).
I have a relative who provides a preschool therapy that is very labor-intensive, requires highly trained practitioners and is consequently quite expensive, usually paid for with state funds or insurance. However, the result is a high percentage of children who join mainstream life, including self-support and tax paying, instead of becoming costly wards of a lifetime support system. That's a bit of an extreme niche, but good basic education, nutrition and welfare are no less effective - and proven to be so. Just not to Joe, who knows poor people are just never going to appreciate anything but another handout, and don't cost him a dime, thank god.
I am a registered Libertarian.
I grew-up on a farm. My father commonly tried to hire teenagers from a nearby trailer park, to help us with harvesting, etc. They could not be bothered to earn a little cash. Their families were generally multi-generational welfare recipients, and that lesson stayed with me.
When my children were small, we attempted a few dinners with co-workers' families. I was shocked to see co-workers who I respected at work, and yet whose children were entirely undisciplined.
Today our children are approaching their 30s, and we are proud of them. Educated, hard-working, prosperous with wonderful spouses.
I grew-up on a farm. My father commonly tried to hire teenagers from a nearby trailer park, to help us with harvesting, etc. They could not be bothered to earn a little cash. Their families were generally multi-generational welfare recipients, and that lesson stayed with me.
When my children were small, we attempted a few dinners with co-workers' families. I was shocked to see co-workers who I respected at work, and yet whose children were entirely undisciplined.
Today our children are approaching their 30s, and we are proud of them. Educated, hard-working, prosperous with wonderful spouses.
I could applaud, I guess, but otherwise I can't connect these comments with the discussion. You were self-sufficient and thus worthy, and kind enough to help the less worthy, but you learned a lesson from their unworthiness? So trying to support and improve unworthies with societal effort is a waste of everyone's time and your hard-earned money?
I could applaud, I guess, but otherwise I can't connect these comments with the discussion. You were self-sufficient and thus worthy, and kind enough to help the less worthy, but you learned a lesson from their unworthiness? So trying to support and improve unworthies with societal effort is a waste of everyone's time and your hard-earned money?
Okay. I can see why you're registered.
I do not think I ever thought of it in terms of 'worthiness'.
Welfare exists. If you have no money then you qualify. To be worthy of welfare, you must have no income. That is the system that is setup for us.
I tried to raise our children, to be able to support themselves, to become independent, and they are.
I do not think I ever thought of it in terms of 'worthiness'.
Welfare exists. If you have no money then you qualify. To be worthy of welfare, you must have no income. That is the system that is setup for us.
I tried to raise our children, to be able to support themselves, to become independent, and they are.
All interesting and even laudatory, but I fail to find a point in there that connects to the discussion. Okay, you're a big-L libertarian and I probably annoyed you with my comment above, and you (characteristically) pride yourself on your family's self-reliance and success... but well, so do I, and I am pretty far from Libertarian thinking and dogma. I've raised six successful and self-supporting kids as well - and they lean even further from Libertarian notions. So maybe you're confusing a couple of things here. I think a hierarchy of worth firmly underlies your viewpoint.
If you think life is Darwinian, I'll leave you to it. But the problem with American libertarian thought - all of it, from the unfocused to the card-carrying - is that it almost completely dismisses the social, political and economic infrastructure that let you - even made you - so self-reliant and economically stable. Go try it again in a third-world country where there's real oppression and always a bigger wolf to take your things away, and see how you feel about independence, the social contract and the obligations of the strong to the weak.
Or, as I've said in other discussions, anyone can play pretend country in the middle of the US. A little different when the next pretend country can invade, rob, enslave and kill you... so good thing there's a sheriff in that county containing your independent, self-reliant butt.
With economic income inequality negatively affecting a sizable portion of people in the United States what can be done to reasonably decrease this inequality?
Good decision-making yields economic benefits, while bad decision-making creates bad consequences. If you want, you can hold the the hands of those who are "negatively affected" and walk them through every second of their miserable lives to ensure they make the best possible decisions.
So why don't you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxyhi
Imagine if all minimum wage workers and those just above went on strike??? What would the wealthy do then?
Imagine if Napoleon had B-52 bombers at the Battle of Waterloo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by txbullsfan
Out of curiosity, has anyone who has already posted on this thread actually watched the video in the original post from start to finish? It is a fairly short video, just a few minutes long.
I have no interest in propaganda nonsense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by txbullsfan
What we have learned (so far) in this thread is that overall, people in other industrialized countries are both happier and healthier when they are taxed more and that those taxes go towards social programs that benefit the greater good.
Comparisons between the expansively diverse heterogeneous US and small homogeneous nation-States are logical fallacies.
For those who believe that the absolute size of the US welfare state is small, the data in Figure 3 are shocking and constitute a wake-up call. Real per capita social welfare spending in the United States is larger than that in almost all other countries! Even if employer-provided benefits and tax expenditures are excluded, the United States is still the third biggest spender on a per capita basis.
I wish more people realized that! Most people seem to believe they owe no debt to society and government whatsoever for the $$$ they've managed to accumulate in their accounts. Try plying your trade in Somalia and see how it goes!
and the obligation would be towards the govt... not individual citizens
you guys keep focusing on individual people as obligations, they aren't
they are statistics, and missing a few numbers on a chart won't change how society functions. IE a large portion of poor people can literally go missing, and no one would miss them
the govt might care about disappearing citizens, but that doesn't obligate rich people to help them
.....
I have no interest in propaganda nonsense.
......
If you are not even going to listen to what an opposing viewpoint has to say but you want to "spout" off what you believe, I dont have anything further to say to you then this post.
Great discussion, debate and progress is made with open minds. At the very least, two sides that are willing to listen to each other, even if they dont agree. Fortunately so far, despite a few exceptions, most conversation in this thread has shown evidence of that.
For everyone else posting in this thread, you are free to do as you wish but I ask you that before you post, at least watch the short 6 minute video in OP before commenting.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
