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Old 06-20-2018, 08:35 AM
 
18,486 posts, read 15,441,736 times
Reputation: 16141

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
I don't understand.

How do people with an ounce of integrity take out an voluntary loan (it is not a medical bill or food or even transportation) and then demand to not be responsible for paying it back?
This raises a lot of deeper issues regarding what promises are really supposed to mean. For example, if you say you'll meet a friend at the mall at 5:00 pm but then someone in your immediate family, who is living with you, has to be taken to the ER at 4:30, we can reasonably say that you can invoke the "principle of necessity" for explaining why you didn't go to the mall as agreed.

We could, of course, all say "I'll meet you at 5 pm, unless my house catches fire, there is a life-threatening emergency in my immediate family, or my car won't start, etc. etc. etc.". But this would be overly tedious and cumbersome. Instead, when we agree on the meeting time and place, it is implied that there are reasonable "exception clauses".

The same should be understood for loans. You promise to pay back, but it is implied that there is a risk of an honestly unforeseen catastrophe occurring, in which case you simply can't pay it back (or shouldn't, if doing so would mean forcing your children onto the streets, etc.)

Now I'll agree with you that if someone doesn't want to pay back their loans because it means they have to drive a Honda instead of a Cadillac, then they should face the consequences of their actions. Does that help?
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Old 06-20-2018, 08:57 AM
 
Location: USA
6,230 posts, read 6,890,124 times
Reputation: 10768
Whatever happened to taking personal responsibility? Going into massive debt for a bachelors degree is a choice.
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Nowhere
10,098 posts, read 4,042,131 times
Reputation: 7086
Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post
To be fair, a lot of kids for a long time were sold a bill of goods and because they were 18, they believed it.
And they did it. Or their parents let them down in raising them. Or whatever.


Tough. They need to own up to what they owe, period. No exceptions and no excuses. My sisters paid their debt; these little cretins we are now producing da-n well pay up as well.


There are ways to play the system and get that degree for close to free, if you really know how to do it. I did it.
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Paranoid State
13,044 posts, read 13,789,090 times
Reputation: 15837
Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post
Do you work for WSJ? Second one with the paywall.
No, but this is inside the Economics Forum where a subscription to the WSJ is pretty much table-stakes.
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Old 06-20-2018, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Watervliet, NY
6,916 posts, read 3,896,025 times
Reputation: 12876
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinm View Post
Women have used their student loan proceeds to get boob jobs and other cosmetic surgery.
And that would be one reason why they are unable to pay them back when the time comes.
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Old 06-20-2018, 12:07 PM
 
10,340 posts, read 5,508,771 times
Reputation: 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post
To be fair, a lot of kids for a long time were sold a bill of goods and because they were 18, they believed it. Wanna borrow $110K for a Social Workers degree? Go For It! Listening to radio, TV, media, it seems like only in the last few years has the advice severely tempered and changed to "Don't borrow more than you want to be on the hook for, and think about the long term prospects of your field of study, and if you want said social workers degree, maybe Regional State is a better option that St. Moneybags.
He world has always been full of hucksters and conmen. One of life’s important lessons is learning to deal with them. Failure to learn that lesson can be expensive.
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Old 06-20-2018, 12:43 PM
 
Location: IL/IN/FL/CA/KY/FL/KY/WA
1,264 posts, read 1,412,056 times
Reputation: 1645
Quote:
Originally Posted by s1alker View Post
Whatever happened to taking personal responsibility? Going into massive debt for a bachelors degree is a choice.
I'm a trumpeter of personal responsibility, but as someone who was saddled with $45k in student loan debt due to financial ignorance at age 18 and duped by my father who signed me up for $20k of that debt without my knowledge, saying he was "taking care of it for me", using my social and having me sign all kinds of stuff that he just said it wasn't worth reading and just sign it because he took care of it, I have a bit of empathy for the process and the issues that some debt sufferers have. I take responsibility for my mistakes, but personally work to teach others so that they don't make the same mistakes I did.

As I have espoused all over this forum, the problem isn't that people are intentionally trying to screw over taxpayers and the government. In fact, most student loan debtors go into the process simply ignorant of the choices they're making.

This is a problem of education - and not traditional grade school education, but financial literacy education.

Why in the world do grade schools, especially high schools, not have a required class for all students to take about personal finance?

Additionally, there needs to be some hand wringing/penalties for the Sallie Mae's of the world too, in that they're making a TON of money off of these college kids and perhaps their parents as well with Parent PLUS loans (which according to Forbes, happens 35% of the time). If they're effectively doing loans with standard rates for what would be in other worlds a mid-sub prime borrower, they're really cheating the country by doing the same thing the government wanted to fight the "too big to fail" banks over when it came to mid/sub prime mortgages and car notes.

In other words, there should be more responsibility and accountability for debt management across the board. However, we know the government isn't really adept at policing themselves, so we need to take it upon ourselves as people to educate ourselves and our children about personal finance and the life pitfalls that can (and do) happen to nearly every American with a net worth under $1 million.
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Old 06-20-2018, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Raleigh
13,635 posts, read 12,266,269 times
Reputation: 20048
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxPhd View Post
He world has always been full of hucksters and conmen. One of life’s important lessons is learning to deal with them. Failure to learn that lesson can be expensive.
Which is one thing when they're hucksters and conmen, or insurance salesmen, and another when they're trusted advisors like guidance counselors.

I'm not advocating turning it into something as easy to discharge in a BK has a huge medical debt or CC debt. BUT, nearly every other lender assumes some risk when they make a loan, and they measure that risk both in terms of the collateral and the quality of the borrower. It would be difficult to get a mortgage for a house that didn't appraise. It is difficult and less lucrative to borrow money for a car the older the car gets. Maybe these student loans need to be scrutinized in the same way.
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Old 06-20-2018, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Raleigh
13,635 posts, read 12,266,269 times
Reputation: 20048
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncole1 View Post
This raises a lot of deeper issues regarding what promises are really supposed to mean. For example, if you say you'll meet a friend at the mall at 5:00 pm but then someone in your immediate family, who is living with you, has to be taken to the ER at 4:30, we can reasonably say that you can invoke the "principle of necessity" for explaining why you didn't go to the mall as agreed.

We could, of course, all say "I'll meet you at 5 pm, unless my house catches fire, there is a life-threatening emergency in my immediate family, or my car won't start, etc. etc. etc.". But this would be overly tedious and cumbersome. Instead, when we agree on the meeting time and place, it is implied that there are reasonable "exception clauses".

The same should be understood for loans. You promise to pay back, but it is implied that there is a risk of an honestly unforeseen catastrophe occurring, in which case you simply can't pay it back (or shouldn't, if doing so would mean forcing your children onto the streets, etc.)

Now I'll agree with you that if someone doesn't want to pay back their loans because it means they have to drive a Honda instead of a Cadillac, then they should face the consequences of their actions. Does that help?
to your point, they can be discharged in bankruptcy if you become disabled.
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Old 06-20-2018, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Paranoid State
13,044 posts, read 13,789,090 times
Reputation: 15837
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinm View Post
Women have used their student loan proceeds to get boob jobs and other cosmetic surgery.
Is this a great country or what???
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