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Old 12-24-2018, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Portugal
5,846 posts, read 2,846,713 times
Reputation: 11143

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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
The income my wife and I are earning (she is just a barely retired government employee) just enabled us to take a two week trip to the Netherlands, Germany, and Austria. In April, we are going on a ten day trip to the French Riviera and to Provence. The only way we could afford luxuries like this--plus a second home--is by earning and maintaining a large income over a long period of time. BTW, I'm also sending my kids to college and because we live in a state where the COL isn't out of sight I'm managing this as well.
Oh my gosh you take two week vacations from work to go to Europe! Wow, what an opulent existence. We're spending all of summer 2019 in Europe, from late May to mid September. We can do that because we retired early and don't have work obligations. It's great to have that freedom.


Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
I approach virtually every Monday happy to go to work
This is probably why you maintain such nonsensical opinions about the overwhelming majority of people who do not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
I am not necessarily saying the FIRE movement is full of people who expect something for nothing. [b]What I am saying is this sort of thing appeals to that mentality. I think that is why I dislike it. Few who play the lottery actually win.
What a terrible description and analogy.

FIRE movement is full of people who know that they have to work hard and sacrifice for a long time to reach their goals, I'm baffled as to how you are convincing yourself it appeals to a "something for nothing" mentality. Comparing to a lottery is just.... well I don't know what to make of your analysis here. Lottery is someone gambling money where they usually just throw it away, FIRE is saving money to build net worth and give yourself options in life.
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Old 12-24-2018, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Portugal
5,846 posts, read 2,846,713 times
Reputation: 11143
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
Anyone who pays attention to the FI crowd knows these folks aren't slackers
It's incredible how off he is on his views of these folks. Despite the "early" part of it the process is still a tortoise game not the hare. Decades of financial and lifestyle discipline, it's a grind and for many they do without things that their peers have because of this goal. To summarize it was people who want something for nothing is just retarded.
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Old 12-24-2018, 05:11 PM
 
7,079 posts, read 8,574,847 times
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There's much $|-|it stirring on this topic, and once again I must point out that the word "retire" is triggering--it's one heck of a loaded word with a whole lot of meaning and assumptions behind it. Take out that word and replace it with "pivoting to other ventures" and the wind goes right out of the haters' sails.

No one has an issue with someone deciding not to do a job where they sit in a veal-fattening cube in some windowless building for the rest of their working life. But the moment people hear the word "retire," which they equate with laying on a couch, eating bon bons for the next several decades, which is not what typically happens, they start raging.

Financial Independence is about having options, that is the very core of it. It allows people to start new careers, start a business, work part-time, go back to school, go traveling, go work for nonprofits at much lower $$$, pursue things that have value to the person. Why is that a problem if it doesn't negatively affect others? What is clearly happening is a lack of understanding about what FIRE is and what it isn't, with a whole lot of judgement, jealousy, and condemnation thrown in.
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Old 12-24-2018, 07:07 PM
 
25,959 posts, read 28,364,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lieqiang View Post
It's incredible how off he is on his views of these folks. Despite the "early" part of it the process is still a tortoise game not the hare. Decades of financial and lifestyle discipline, it's a grind and for many they do without things that their peers have because of this goal. To summarize it was people who want something for nothing is just retarded.
Correct.

Even for the people who "race" to FI, it still usually takes them a decade. That's still not a short amount of time--at least not in most people's minds.
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Old 12-24-2018, 07:11 PM
 
25,959 posts, read 28,364,698 times
Reputation: 24609
Quote:
Originally Posted by lottamoxie View Post
There's much $|-|it stirring on this topic, and once again I must point out that the word "retire" is triggering--it's one heck of a loaded word with a whole lot of meaning and assumptions behind it. Take out that word and replace it with "pivoting to other ventures" and the wind goes right out of the haters' sails.

No one has an issue with someone deciding not to do a job where they sit in a veal-fattening cube in some windowless building for the rest of their working life. But the moment people hear the word "retire," which they equate with laying on a couch, eating bon bons for the next several decades, which is not what typically happens, they start raging.

Financial Independence is about having options, that is the very core of it. It allows people to start new careers, start a business, work part-time, go back to school, go traveling, go work for nonprofits at much lower $$$, pursue things that have value to the person. Why is that a problem if it doesn't negatively affect others? What is clearly happening is a lack of understanding about what FIRE is and what it isn't, with a whole lot of judgement, jealousy, and condemnation thrown in.
Yes, I agree. But what I really hate about the critics is so many of their criticisms are just totally knee-jerk. They totally expose themselves as ignorant yet act like complete know-it-alls. Annoying!
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Old 12-25-2018, 04:32 PM
 
Location: Olympus Mons, Mars
5,620 posts, read 8,546,426 times
Reputation: 5681
I think saving and shooting to be financial secure is a laudable goal. However, the aspect I have issue with regarding the FIRE movement are the numbers. I think retiring with only $1M at 35 is sketchy even if one has a frugal lifestyle. You want to have a good buffer to simply leave the workforce that young when you may have trouble re-integrating later if you need to.

Also, abandoning your work history at that age can have serious consequences not only with employability but also with your social security record - you can expect only very minimal social security benefits with such a light work record.

Heck, I am somewhat hesitant to do it in 10 years when I will be 55 with estimated $1M and I am single, no debts, no dependents and live a frugal lifestyle. Some of these people have kids, mortgages etc. and the $1M figure has to last for 2 people because most are couples.

Also, I see some of these people having big expectations - they travel etc. Traveling can be expensive no matter how many corners you cut, it's a luxury. I have serious doubts as to how these people are financing such things with just the returns from a $1M portfolio. One person took his whole family to Spain, just the airfare for that can be shockingly expensive for 4 people.

If I were to take a guess I would say at the very minimum $2M at 35 with a super frugal lifestyle.. nothing less.
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Old 12-25-2018, 05:35 PM
 
8,700 posts, read 5,059,694 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Different strokes for different folks. The message that most people need to here though is that there isn't something for nothing in this world. Success is the product of planning, education, and hard work over a sustained period. I've survived because I like being a lawyer. Mondays are nothing I run from. I approach virtually every Monday happy to go to work.

I understand we have to make room for different strokes for different folks. I am not necessarily saying the FIRE movement is full of people who expect something for nothing. What I am saying is this sort of thing appeals to that mentality. I think that is why I dislike it. Few who play the lottery actually win.
You are equating choosing to LBYM for a couple of decades while saving/investing aggressively to a chance fluke. That's a ridiculous comparison.

FIRE is anything but a get rich quick scheme.
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Old 12-25-2018, 07:43 PM
 
9,137 posts, read 9,220,068 times
Reputation: 28605
Quote:
Originally Posted by lieqiang View Post
Oh my gosh you take two week vacations from work to go to Europe! Wow, what an opulent existence. We're spending all of summer 2019 in Europe, from late May to mid September. We can do that because we retired early and don't have work obligations. It's great to have that freedom.



This is probably why you maintain such nonsensical opinions about the overwhelming majority of people who do not.


What a terrible description and analogy.

FIRE movement is full of people who know that they have to work hard and sacrifice for a long time to reach their goals, I'm baffled as to how you are convincing yourself it appeals to a "something for nothing" mentality. Comparing to a lottery is just.... well I don't know what to make of your analysis here. Lottery is someone gambling money where they usually just throw it away, FIRE is saving money to build net worth and give yourself options in life.
If you have already answered this, I apologize. My questions though are these: 1. What age did you retire at? 2. How much money did you have when you retired?
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Old 12-25-2018, 08:06 PM
 
25,959 posts, read 28,364,698 times
Reputation: 24609
Quote:
Originally Posted by k374 View Post
I think saving and shooting to be financial secure is a laudable goal. However, the aspect I have issue with regarding the FIRE movement are the numbers. I think retiring with only $1M at 35 is sketchy even if one has a frugal lifestyle. You want to have a good buffer to simply leave the workforce that young when you may have trouble re-integrating later if you need to.
It's a valid concern, but overblown IMO. What people don't understand is the 4% rule is conservative. Gaining re-entry into the work force might be hard. But then, if your portfolio takes a dive or expenses go up, you probably won't need a full time job to make up for it. A crappy part time job is usually good enough until things get better. And as has been stated, most people who become FI at 35 end up making money doing something. Even if it's not as much as their previous jobs, they don't really need that much to pad their portfolios.

This guy spends 40k or less a year and has 3 kids. And they do go on great vacations and all of that. The thing is...they have the TIME to shop around for the best deals. People just DO NOT understand how much working takes away from their mental bandwidth to get the best deals on things. He posts his expenses and income every month. And surprise, the blog and his part time consulting almost pay for most of his living expenses. This is typical from what I see. Maybe not everyone has a blog that pays, but they always have some small gig that brings in at least a few thousand a year. Plus, most young FI people do tend to pad their expenses and end up not spending as much as they thought.

https://rootofgood.com/november-2018...ter-is-coming/

Quote:
Originally Posted by k374 View Post
Also, abandoning your work history at that age can have serious consequences not only with employability but also with your social security record - you can expect only very minimal social security benefits with such a light work record.
They don't care about SS. They plan as if they won't get any. And if they do get some, it will just pad what they already have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k374 View Post
Also, I see some of these people having big expectations - they travel etc. Traveling can be expensive no matter how many corners you cut, it's a luxury. I have serious doubts as to how these people are financing such things with just the returns from a $1M portfolio. One person took his whole family to Spain, just the airfare for that can be shockingly expensive for 4 people..
Most of these people are really good at travel hacks. Once again, you underestimate how much working really costs you. When you have the time to shop around for the best credit card points deals. When you have the flexibility to travel where and when the best deals are, the cost comes down a lot. People who are working tend to not have the level of flexibility necessary to make travel cheap. They really, really, don't understand how much time and mental bandwidth is eaten up by working full time.
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Old 12-25-2018, 09:04 PM
 
7,079 posts, read 8,574,847 times
Reputation: 8866
There's another factor at play. People who get into a FI/RE mindset learn to be or already are, creative in how they approach life. They stop needing lots of toys and stuff to fill them up. They tend to value experiences over stuff. And they meet like-minded people along the way and there is a lot of creativity out there in how to do things like travel but at a much lower cost, without being a vagabond hopping a train.

People not of this mindset can't comprehend how it could possibly work. They can't imagine not having their $5+ $tarbucks drink every day (oh the inhumanity) or their weekly shop-hop to various retail stores to buy new things, which they don't need. Living on $40k-$50K seems inconceivable to them, but there are people doing it.

And really, what business is it of anyone else? As long as these folks aren't a burden on society, they aren't committing crimes, they aren't killing others, they aren't fleecing the welfare system or not paying their taxes...as long as they are responsible adults, what is the problem?

If you don't want to retire early, then simple. Don't. If you do want the option of retiring early, then learn what it will take to do so and how much you'll need in your nest egg.
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