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Old 12-29-2018, 05:09 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,931 posts, read 22,165,898 times
Reputation: 9010

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Quote:
Originally Posted by t206 View Post
Care to explain how I would have quoted an actual number from an article I didn't read?
You clearly did nothing but skim it for something to brush the issue off.

For instance:

"Only the executives’ plan, however, was fully funded under the sales agreement: With the completion of Sun’s purchase, Marsh’s top five executives were to be awarded $14 million in retirement payments, according to company financial documents. Among them: CEO Don Marsh at $7 million and corporate counsel P. Lawrence Butt at $2.2 million."


Why were the executives who failed to run the company well deserving of that?
A couple more pertinent quotes:


Quote:
At Powermate, a manufacturer of electric generators with a factory in Nebraska, Sun Capital took $20 million from the company as a dividend in 2006, according to court documents. Two years later, it sent the company into bankruptcy court, leaving the government insurer to pay for the underfunded pension covering 600 workers.
Quote:
At Indalex, an Illinois-based aluminum parts maker, Sun extracted a dividend of $70 million in 2007, according to court documents. Two years later it sent the company into bankruptcy, leaving the government insurer to pay more than 3,000 pensioners.
Your position that these pensions couldn't be paid and that paying them threatened the quality of service and current employees of the businesses is flat out false. These parasitic investors were extracting millions of dollars in gain from these businesses while running them into the ground. Money that could have paid pensions and could have kept the businesses operating.

 
Old 12-29-2018, 05:11 PM
 
11,248 posts, read 5,897,897 times
Reputation: 3518
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
You clearly did nothing but skim it for something to brush the issue off.

For instance:

"Only the executives’ plan, however, was fully funded under the sales agreement: With the completion of Sun’s purchase, Marsh’s top five executives were to be awarded $14 million in retirement payments, according to company financial documents. Among them: CEO Don Marsh at $7 million and corporate counsel P. Lawrence Butt at $2.2 million."


Why were the executives who failed to run the company well deserving of that?
A couple more pertinent quotes:






Your position that these pensions couldn't be paid and that paying them threatened the quality of service and current employees of the businesses is flat out false. These parasitic investors were extracting millions of dollars in gain from these businesses while running them into the ground. Money that could have paid pensions and could have kept the businesses operating.
No, my point was (as I stated earlier) that this one instance of $280M is a drop in the bucket of a much larger problem, which is why I quoted the statement about "attacking the people in the article" and said it wouldn't solve the larger issue.
 
Old 12-29-2018, 05:12 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,931 posts, read 22,165,898 times
Reputation: 9010
Quote:
Originally Posted by t206 View Post
No, my point was (as I stated earlier) that this one instance of $280M is a drop in the bucket of a much larger problem, which is why I quoted the statement about "attacking the people in the article" and said it wouldn't solve the larger issue.
This article focuses on just one group. There are many more of these people out there doing nothing but spreading misery and destroying businesses for short term gain. New laws that target this behavior would address more than just this one group.
 
Old 12-29-2018, 05:13 PM
 
77,483 posts, read 33,024,777 times
Reputation: 15418
Quote:
Originally Posted by t206 View Post
Thats not what I'm debating. I'm saying stop the lies. Or do you prefer pensions and the underlying lies continue to exist going forward? I say stop it all now, end this problem.
What's to stop them from lying about other promises? Maybe those who can not honor an agreement should not be in business?
 
Old 12-29-2018, 05:18 PM
 
Location: Washington State
18,068 posts, read 9,363,025 times
Reputation: 15410
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/mark...cid=spartandhp


The issue of the private sector and workers losing pensions came up in the thread on federal pensions, but I figure this deserves its own thread. Here's why private sector workers have lost so much. Because we allow rich investors to do what this article describes. And whereas executive pensions were protected, workers'' were not. They gut a company, grab the money, and run to the next one, passing the workers on to the government to be taken care of. These investors are parasites.
My company did away with the pension system and I got the claimed value put into my 401K. I personally have no problem with our current system, you just have to plan and manage your own retirement more than the person that has a pension from work.

I retired yesterday years before social security and I'm doing it with savings, rentals that I own, wife's pension and I have my 401K account if I need it.

The day's of great private pensions seems to be over....but at least they get nice pensions if yu're a government worker.
 
Old 12-29-2018, 05:19 PM
 
11,248 posts, read 5,897,897 times
Reputation: 3518
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
This article focuses on just one group. There are many more of these people out there doing nothing but spreading misery and destroying businesses for short term gain. New laws that target this behavior would address more than just this one group.
Laws on top of laws on top of laws to "fix" an unfixable problem. I don't see the benefit. Stop pensions, give actual people more control over their savings and retirement instead of handing it off to be managed by someone else. What could possibly be more empowering than giving someone full control over their own future?
 
Old 12-29-2018, 05:21 PM
 
11,248 posts, read 5,897,897 times
Reputation: 3518
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
What's to stop them from lying about other promises? Maybe those who can not honor an agreement should not be in business?
Not sure what other lies you are talking about. Stick to pensions, don't try to steer my comments into something that I obviously wasn't talking about. The folks in the article are obviously bad actors, but they are doing so in a system (the pension system) which I'm saying I don't see as a viable long term solution, people deserve something better, and something that they have personal control over.
 
Old 12-29-2018, 05:26 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,931 posts, read 22,165,898 times
Reputation: 9010
Quote:
Originally Posted by t206 View Post
Laws on top of laws on top of laws to "fix" an unfixable problem. I don't see the benefit. Stop pensions, give actual people more control over their savings and retirement instead of handing it off to be managed by someone else. What could possibly be more empowering than giving someone full control over their own future?
The employers who did away with pensions generally didn't increase the pay of their employees to make up for that nor did most provide contributions to other options (like a 401k). Depending on the stock market for retirement isn't really too empowering.

We're just watching a race to the bottom and yes laws could solve this issue, including changes to bankruptcy laws.
 
Old 12-29-2018, 05:27 PM
 
77,483 posts, read 33,024,777 times
Reputation: 15418
Quote:
Originally Posted by t206 View Post
Not sure what other lies you are talking about. Stick to pensions, don't try to steer my comments into something that I obviously wasn't talking about. The folks in the article are obviously bad actors, but they are doing so in a system (the pension system) which I'm saying I don't see as a viable long term solution, people deserve something better, and something that they have personal control over.
If part of your compensation package is a percentage of your sales at the end of the year as a bonus but if you pay that bonus to all the sales staff the stockholders will get a return they are not happy with is it OK to not pay them?

Is the solution to do away with bonuses? Why can't this apply to all forms of the employment contract? Not to answer my own question but that is what is happening. The only thing that matters is stock holders. Stock Holders not interested in the long term.

It was once a case where someone would invest in a company. There were no computer programs that automatically sold when a stock falls a certain percentage. Investing is no longer about building things. Investing is now all about getting as much as you can out of a company and then tearing it apart.

It's "investing" that is not working, not employment agreements.
 
Old 12-29-2018, 05:32 PM
 
11,248 posts, read 5,897,897 times
Reputation: 3518
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
The employers who did away with pensions generally didn't increase the pay of their employees to make up for that nor did most provide contributions to other options (like a 401k). Depending on the stock market for retirement isn't really too empowering.

We're just watching a race to the bottom and yes laws could solve this issue, including changes to bankruptcy laws.
Another failure of people expecting their employers to own their financial future. Standard 401k and IRA options resolve all of this with no new laws needed. You can't expect that these bad actors would have done the right thing by upping salary or other contributions. Remove pensions, it removes this problem.
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