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Old 07-15-2017, 08:45 AM
 
Location: NW Nevada
14,179 posts, read 11,598,436 times
Reputation: 13231

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG CATS View Post
...but only love the cute and cuddly ones.


As the owner of several exotic pets (ranging from snakes and tarantulas to centipedes and scorpions), it hurts me to see the rampant abuse and killing of the animals I hold near and dear to my heart. All too often I hear "ooooh, I LOVE animals" just to see those same people smashing innocent snakes with shovels, or hammering spiders to death with a shoe.


Now before you chime in with "they're dangerous creatures and I need to protect my family" or some other odd excuse, let me tell you... if you all could take the time to actually do a little research on these amazing critters, you'd see how beneficial they are to mankind, and how to ID the potentially dangerous specimens.


I wont sugarcoat it! Ill admit rattlesnakes, etc, can be lethal to man. There's no doubt about that. But you have to look at the numbers and options at play. Most rattlesnake bites aren't lethal, not even close. Rattlesnakes, if seen in your yard, are most likely passing through on their way to good food sources. Learn to ID them (its super easy) and simply leave them alone and call the FD. They will come and remove them, free of charge, and release them into unpopulated areas. There are also many volunteer snake handlers who will remove them, too. Just don't be so quick to maim and hurt them. They are keeping all the rodents out of your area, which are FAR more dangerous to mankind than any snake is.


Same goes for spiders. Spiders are relatively harmless to man. The vast, vast, vast majority of bites are completely harmless. Most of the time you wont even ever know you've been bit! Notorious spiders like the black widow have killed.... well.... Ill let you guys do some research on that. You'll be absolutely shocked when you see the numbers. Back on track, spiders are one of mankinds best friends! They dispatch all the nasty bugs (mosquitos, cockroaches, etc) for you, while you sleep. Be thankful theyre around your home, regardless if you think they're ugly or whatnot. The best part? They do this free of charge, and without nasty chemicals being sprayed around your children and pets.


What I'm getting at here, people, is despite your indifference towards these creatures, they deserve to live, just like your cats and dogs do. If you truly loved animals, you would leave them alone, and give them a second chance. Don't be afraid of them, rather learn about them, and just like me, you might find yourself fascinated and cured of any arachnophobia or ophidiophobia. I was once and arachnophobe myself! I know the fear can be crippling, but just like your cats and dogs, spiders and snakes are full of nerves and feel pain, too. They breathe air and bleed. Remember that before you kill them, that's all I ask.

I know the difference twixt the good the bad and the ugly now. Lol. Black Widows and Fiddle backs die on sight. Sorry, but there's plenty of good ones out there that won't land me n mine in the hospital. Rattles I treat so long as they aren't Mojave Greens. The latter become hat bands if they cross my path. House centipedes I have a non aggression treaty with. Anything that kills bed bugs has got to be OK. All lizards and non venomous snakes I consider allies. Sme rule applies to non venomous spiders. The Widows started things with me. Especially if they are in my house, they will be fired upon. Same with scorpions. Scorpions are on the target list.

My lizards I have an active and very friendly alliance with as it is with the Bull snakes. I will transport them to rich feeding grounds upon request such as the pump house, or any gopher holes on the lawn or the mouses CP in my barn. The barn cats are under strict orders to leave my snakes and lizards alone though I have had to drag a couple cats to Captains Mast for violation of those orders. Had to hand out some reductions in rank and cut milk rations upon occasion.
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Old 07-15-2017, 10:22 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,260 posts, read 19,248,961 times
Reputation: 8460
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
I personally don't (eat beef or pork), but understand how people can differentiate between PETS and FOOD. I will eat poultry occasionally, and figure it's part of the natural circle. Loving or caring about animals doesn't mean you deny the natural order of things, which does include animals (including humans) eating other animals... what I think matters more is how these animals are treated and eventually slaughtered, in both cases I hope humanely.

For example, I keep and breed mice to feed my snakes, and people sometimes ask "how can you - a pet lover - do that?" My answer is that they're treated like any PET while alive, complete with toys and high-quality food, and given the most humane/quick death possible. So I'm okay with it, since a mouse's main purpose is to feed other animals anyway. Not to mention, my colony wouldn't even exist if I hadn't created them in the first place.
I never understood that distinction, it reminds me a bit of the Nazis who distinguished between humans, some of whom deserved to live and be liked while others didn't, all based on arbitrary criteria that don't exist from the animals' perspective. After all, an animal is an animal, a pet is in no way more precious than a wild or farm animal, it doesn't have more soul or anything. Humans only tell themselves there is a difference in order to justify their behavior.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
I said nothing about "guests" - this was a random woman at a dog park, with whom I was conversing about our pets. And I completely respect my friends/family who are afraid, and would never force them to hold or interact with the snakes... but you do have to tolerate their presence in my home, since it's not like I can evacuate them before your visit. Regardless, my point was that I personally don't understand why most people equate fur with "good/cuddly" pet, since reptiles can be sweet and cuddly too. Also, I just think it's RUDE to tell someone their pet is disgusting! Can you imagine if someone said that to your dog or cat? I doubt you'd be cool with it.

P.S. For the record, neither snakes nor spiders are generally a "threat to one's life." Even venomous snakes are rarely deadly, unless you live in Southeast Asia or Australia. Mine are completely harmless, as they're non-venomous, but I get that people have irrational fears (since I have them towards harmless spiders).
I think that is all irrelevant to the vast majority of humans, who are not snake or spider experts. Just like with pitbulls: if a pitbull came running towards me and I had a gun, I would shoot it right away, just because it is a pitbull and as such perceived as a threat by me, even if it were the sweetest dog according to the owner.

I think the fear of snakes and spiders is innate. I grew up in a region where there are no snakes or big spiders. Still, people there are afraid of snakes and big spiders, often even of common house spiders.

Nor do I think that it is rude to say your snakes or spiders are disgusting. I think it is kind of antisocial to keep such pets in the first place because you are certainly aware what kind of reactions such species cause in other people. That doesn't change just because those creatures live in your home.
Imagine you liked eating horse crap, would you expect people not to say it's disgusting if you invited someone over for dinner? Social norms don't stop at your front door.
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Old 07-15-2017, 10:58 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,260 posts, read 19,248,961 times
Reputation: 8460
Quote:
Originally Posted by jencam View Post
I saw a cute thing on facebook. Someone found a mouse in their home and was about to kill it when he realized he had no right. So, he took the mouse somewhere and let him go. There is no way I could kill a little mousy!
I used to have mice when I was a teenager. I like them a lot, clever little animals, and pretty friendly once they know and trust you I remember their babies, naked, blind and helpless
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Old 07-15-2017, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Canada
1,403 posts, read 843,341 times
Reputation: 4468
Quote:
Originally Posted by jencam View Post
I saw a cute thing on facebook. Someone found a mouse in their home and was about to kill it when he realized he had no right. So, he took the mouse somewhere and let him go. There is no way I could kill a little mousy!
I used to have mice as pets when I was a teen (much to my father's dismay...and who knew they could replicate so quickly? Well, I didn't, at the time ).

Several years ago I had a strange encounter with a wild mouse. I was biking to work and came across a significantly fat cat playing with something in the middle of the road. Turns out it was a mouse, terrified, and the cat kept batting it back and forth. I stopped my bike and got off, then attempted to help the mouse out by placing my bike between him and the cat, giving the mouse a chance to run away. Unfortunately the poor little guy was too afraid to know what to do...he kept running in circles, or would stop and just sit in place. The cat kept trying to thwart my efforts by circling around the bike, wanting to get his prize back. And for a few moments I thought that my efforts would save the little guy.

But then the most surreal thing happened. The mouse, who had been running around confused, terrified, leapt onto my sneaker, looked straight up at me and into my eyes, and gave a little squeak. I swear, it was as if he was asking me for help, like he knew I was on his side and trying to save him.

Sadly, the ending did not go well for the mouse. The cat turned out to be quicker than me (despite his rather rotund appearance) and at one point zigged around my bike just as I zagged it, grabbed the poor little mouse, and took off into a nearby field. I went on to work, but I couldn't stop thinking about that little guy. In fact, this took place many years ago, and yet I've never forgotten how he looked up at me that day, and how he tried to 'speak' to me in his own way.

I've never taken any animal's life for granted, and that's one of the reasons why.
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Old 07-16-2017, 04:36 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 44,947,655 times
Reputation: 20423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
I never understood that distinction, it reminds me a bit of the Nazis who distinguished between humans, some of whom deserved to live and be liked while others didn't, all based on arbitrary criteria that don't exist from the animals' perspective. After all, an animal is an animal, a pet is in no way more precious than a wild or farm animal, it doesn't have more soul or anything. Humans only tell themselves there is a difference in order to justify their behavior.
Oh, you did not just invoke Godwin's Law with a Jew... did you??

I also never made a distinction between different types of animals, so please read my post again. I was only explaining why ANY animals are consumed, and how that doesn't mean you can't be an "animal lover" too. To repeat, I think it's more important how these animals are treated (while alive) and slaughtered - whether it's a pig, cow, horse, dog, or whatever. Never claimed one was more worthy of being eaten than another, and to be honest, I'd eat a human if that were my only food source. How's that for consistency? LOL

Quote:
I think that is all irrelevant to the vast majority of humans, who are not snake or spider experts. Just like with pitbulls: if a pitbull came running towards me and I had a gun, I would shoot it right away, just because it is a pitbull and as such perceived as a threat by me, even if it were the sweetest dog according to the owner.
And you'd be wrong in that situation, regardless of your innate feelings. Some people have an innate fear towards people of certain races, but that doesn't justify shooting or mistreating them. Right?

Quote:
I think the fear of snakes and spiders is innate. I grew up in a region where there are no snakes or big spiders. Still, people there are afraid of snakes and big spiders, often even of common house spiders.
As I said before, I do understand how and why some folks are afraid. I'm afraid of spiders, even though they generally can't/won't hurt me... but I do try to step back from my initial fear, and treat them as respectfully as possible. Usually I just ignore them, unless they're literally climbing ON me. Then all bets are off!

But this is not a fear we're born with, rather one that is taught to us very young (in some cases). I can say this for certain, because when I've done/hosted snake shows at the library, 99% of the children are curious and NOT fearful at all. Their parents, on the other hand......

Quote:
Nor do I think that it is rude to say your snakes or spiders are disgusting. I think it is kind of antisocial to keep such pets in the first place because you are certainly aware what kind of reactions such species cause in other people. That doesn't change just because those creatures live in your home.
Imagine you liked eating horse crap, would you expect people not to say it's disgusting if you invited someone over for dinner? Social norms don't stop at your front door.
Actually, I do expect my (rare) guests to be respectful - especially since the snakes are all securely housed, and not even visible unless you go looking for them. I won't bring them out without your explicit permission, so it's not that difficult to just pretend they're not there. And yes, it IS rude to say someone's beloved pet is disgusting. If you see someone with an ugly dog, do you walk up and tell them "Your dog is gross!"? Most civilized humans wouldn't do that, so I don't think I'm asking too much here. Unless I'm sticking it in your face (which I'd never do), follow the old "if you don't have anything nice to say..."

But how does it make me antisocial to own a pet some people hate? Lots of people hate/fear cats and dogs, so am I "antisocial" for having those too? I have friends and family members who are afraid of snakes, but they're still fine with coming over to my house; since again, they are not within view unless you go looking. And what else am I supposed to do? Keep my house, where I live ALONE, free of anything that might scare someone? Sorry, but I've worked too hard to not keep my home as I please.

Last edited by gizmo980; 07-16-2017 at 04:59 PM..
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Old 07-16-2017, 04:47 PM
 
Location: San Diego
1,146 posts, read 420,907 times
Reputation: 2473
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG CATS View Post
...but only love the cute and cuddly ones.


As the owner of several exotic pets (ranging from snakes and tarantulas to centipedes and scorpions), it hurts me to see the rampant abuse and killing of the animals I hold near and dear to my heart. All too often I hear "ooooh, I LOVE animals" just to see those same people smashing innocent snakes with shovels, or hammering spiders to death with a shoe.


Now before you chime in with "they're dangerous creatures and I need to protect my family" or some other odd excuse, let me tell you... if you all could take the time to actually do a little research on these amazing critters, you'd see how beneficial they are to mankind, and how to ID the potentially dangerous specimens.


I wont sugarcoat it! Ill admit rattlesnakes, etc, can be lethal to man. There's no doubt about that. But you have to look at the numbers and options at play. Most rattlesnake bites aren't lethal, not even close. Rattlesnakes, if seen in your yard, are most likely passing through on their way to good food sources. Learn to ID them (its super easy) and simply leave them alone and call the FD. They will come and remove them, free of charge, and release them into unpopulated areas. There are also many volunteer snake handlers who will remove them, too. Just don't be so quick to maim and hurt them. They are keeping all the rodents out of your area, which are FAR more dangerous to mankind than any snake is.


Same goes for spiders. Spiders are relatively harmless to man. The vast, vast, vast majority of bites are completely harmless. Most of the time you wont even ever know you've been bit! Notorious spiders like the black widow have killed.... well.... Ill let you guys do some research on that. You'll be absolutely shocked when you see the numbers. Back on track, spiders are one of mankinds best friends! They dispatch all the nasty bugs (mosquitos, cockroaches, etc) for you, while you sleep. Be thankful theyre around your home, regardless if you think they're ugly or whatnot. The best part? They do this free of charge, and without nasty chemicals being sprayed around your children and pets.


What I'm getting at here, people, is despite your indifference towards these creatures, they deserve to live, just like your cats and dogs do. If you truly loved animals, you would leave them alone, and give them a second chance. Don't be afraid of them, rather learn about them, and just like me, you might find yourself fascinated and cured of any arachnophobia or ophidiophobia. I was once and arachnophobe myself! I know the fear can be crippling, but just like your cats and dogs, spiders and snakes are full of nerves and feel pain, too. They breathe air and bleed. Remember that before you kill them, that's all I ask.

No snakes near me but if a spider comes into my space, its getting the bottom of my converse shoe. And i know for a fact that spiders dont feel anything. They are here to scare the schitt out of us. Hulk smash!!
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Old 07-17-2017, 06:56 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,260 posts, read 19,248,961 times
Reputation: 8460
Godwin's Law is nonsense to begin with.

Sorry, I think your view on this topic are a case for the shrink.
When you breed mice just to feed your primitive reptile, you might as well breed cats to feed your doberman or horses to feed your tiger. So yes, you are distinguishing between animals. You think mice are less valuable than your stupid snake.

When a snake eats a mouse in the wild, that is indeed not my business, but when humans keep snakes and such beasts as pets and then have to sacrifice much more intelligent and much more human animals such as mice just to feed those beasts, then I think something is very wrong.
How you treat those mice before you feed them to your snake is irrelevant in this respect.

Children don't fear anything, yet, because their brains are literally not evolved enough for that. That's why adults have to watch them all the time, to keep them from doing something stupid as they lack the understanding for danger, threat, cause and effect, etc. In other words, just because a little child is not afraid of snakes, does not mean the fear of snakes is not innate.

And yes, keeping dogs of certain breeds for instance is considered antisocial where I live, which is why there is an official black list of such dog breeds. One needs a special and hard to get licence to keep such dogs because such dogs used to be kept most of all by scum and criminals. Personally, I wish dogs would just disappear altogether from cities (except guiding dogs and police dogs, of course).
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Old 07-17-2017, 07:09 AM
 
Location: SW Florida
10,237 posts, read 4,811,338 times
Reputation: 21557
The only creatures I kill are roaches, scorpions & ants if they are in my house and outside I only kill the fire ants as my granddaughter is allergic. I take the spiders and lizards that manage to sneak into the house outside. The exception would be a black/brown widow or a recluse spider. The only snake I ever killed was a rattlesnake because it was on my front stoop and I had young children. I really don't get the fear people have of snakes. In most cases they are good to have around (unless they are venomous).


Other than that I leave all creatures alone. If I see a turtle/tortoise crossing the street I help him along so he doesn't get hit by a car. Here in Florida we protested the first (and hopefully) the last black bear hunt 2 years ago. My older son and I had quite the argument with my sister who wants to kill a raccoon on her 10 acres because it keeps stealing the mangos from her tree.


So I would say I definitely love animals.
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Old 07-17-2017, 08:42 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,260 posts, read 19,248,961 times
Reputation: 8460
Loving and not killing are very different things. I hardly love any animals, but I hardly kill any animals, either, except mosquitoes and such low life. If necessary, I would kill any animal that I felt threatened by, though.

Love requires trust, and I can't trust any animals that are or used to be predators in terms of ancestry. Usually I don't even trust humans
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Old 07-17-2017, 06:56 PM
 
13,408 posts, read 6,638,020 times
Reputation: 12853
Quote:
Originally Posted by bassetluv View Post
I used to have mice as pets when I was a teen (much to my father's dismay...and who knew they could replicate so quickly? Well, I didn't, at the time ).

Several years ago I had a strange encounter with a wild mouse. I was biking to work and came across a significantly fat cat playing with something in the middle of the road. Turns out it was a mouse, terrified, and the cat kept batting it back and forth. I stopped my bike and got off, then attempted to help the mouse out by placing my bike between him and the cat, giving the mouse a chance to run away. Unfortunately the poor little guy was too afraid to know what to do...he kept running in circles, or would stop and just sit in place. The cat kept trying to thwart my efforts by circling around the bike, wanting to get his prize back. And for a few moments I thought that my efforts would save the little guy.

But then the most surreal thing happened. The mouse, who had been running around confused, terrified, leapt onto my sneaker, looked straight up at me and into my eyes, and gave a little squeak. I swear, it was as if he was asking me for help, like he knew I was on his side and trying to save him.

Sadly, the ending did not go well for the mouse. The cat turned out to be quicker than me (despite his rather rotund appearance) and at one point zigged around my bike just as I zagged it, grabbed the poor little mouse, and took off into a nearby field. I went on to work, but I couldn't stop thinking about that little guy. In fact, this took place many years ago, and yet I've never forgotten how he looked up at me that day, and how he tried to 'speak' to me in his own way.

I've never taken any animal's life for granted, and that's one of the reasons why.
I really hate the ending to your story! awe..... he WAS seeing your help! Not your fault, of course, just sad. Something I wouldn't forget either. It's still sweet that he jumped on your shoe and 'talked' to you!
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