Does the regional rail lines work a bit like the BART and DC metro?

[DarkWolf]

Someone told me that , they closed alot of lines. Cut some lines short.....now they want to restore most of that. I'm talking about all there Diesel lines and a few Electric lines. Like the West Chester branch.

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Someone told me that , they closed alot of lines. Cut some lines short.....now they want to restore most of that. I'm talking about all there Diesel lines and a few Electric lines. Like the West Chester branch.

I know the old Newtown line was cut short, think was the Fox Chase line, but that is like 25 years ago

[DarkWolf]

Newton 10 , West Chester 12 , Cynwyd Line 3 ,Manayunk/Norristown Line 3 ,i have to get the list which buried on my favorites somewhere....but its alot. Most stations / lines didn't need to go , Septa was being lazy.

[Marius Pontmercy]

And we were all supposed to have cars by now. You people and your silly old trains.

[PeeAye Native]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Newton 10 , West Chester 12 , Cynwyd Line 3 ,Manayunk/Norristown Line 3 ,i have to get the list which buried on my favorites somewhere....but its alot. Most stations / lines didn't need to go , Septa was being lazy.

I think you're 20 (or more) years behind the times.

[DarkWolf]

Originally Posted by PeeAye Native

I think you're 20 (or more) years behind the times.

LOL , i might have counted other things outside of Septa , but i considered it Septa because it was located in SE PA. Like the Many abandoned RR's that Septa wants to restore or other agencies.

[OyCrumbler]

Originally Posted by kidphilly

Also to further answer your question, although there is some aged infrastructure and old stops, much of where the regional runs together is close to area already served subway lines (maybe was original through-ways, not sure), I actually think Philly could do a little better with some additional intercity stops to capatilize on the existing infrastructure but would likely be better served with additional rail options (more subway like) to poorer served inter city areas. Or even light-rail/trolleys. I often thought it would be great for a loop trolley that would run around the core and give better rail options to places like Pennsport, Queen Village, Deleware Ave (Think they call it Columbus Blvd now but will always De Ave to me) Vine and/or Girard and into the Art Musuem area - then maybe some feeder lines extending into South Philly, NE Philly and North Philly but just a fleeting thought. When I lived in QV access to rail was poor considering it is mostly considered a center city neighborhood even if South of South St, though that are has no regional rail in any proximity.

The rail option along the waterfront would also allow further development of an area that for the most part remains old and many times abandoned warehouses with prime waterfron real estate and pretty good proximity to the core. That infrastructure could give this area a huge jump start, it dies since I95 was finished and basically walled it from the city in many locales. ok sorry for so much info...


BTW I agree on METRO and even MARTA in Atl (though i do not know the SF trans as well but have used a handful of times) or even the Blue line in Chicago that these are sort of hybrid, probably more close to the future types that work better, almost best of both worlds for regional and core coverage.

Awesome, detailed answer. The part I put in bold was actually what I was thinking when I made this thread. Those tracks for the regional rail are going to be there no matter what, so it figures it'd make the most sense to use them as much as possible. Do any of the regional rail lines run in dense areas within the city where it'd make sense to put in an infill station?

I know that Tokyo and Taipei have done the same with their commuter rail systems and NYC is half-heartedly piloting the idea with special in-city passes for the Metro-North and LIRR. It seems like a very economical way to massively improve mass transit within a city.

[JasmineFlower]

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

Awesome, detailed answer. The part I put in bold was actually what I was thinking when I made this thread. Those tracks for the regional rail are going to be there no matter what, so it figures it'd make the most sense to use them as much as possible. Do any of the regional rail lines run in dense areas within the city where it'd make sense to put in an infill station?

I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think the existing rail lines can be put to much better use in Center City and not much in other parts of the city either. That's not to say I don't think service can't be improved, it most definitely can, but by and large, I think it ought to remain the same in Center City. There are stops in Center City around 12th & Market, 17th & Market, and 30th & Market. Where should another one go? The tracks curve out of Market East, so not on in Old City, a place if there were tracks would make loads of sense. At 23rd & Market, where there's not a ton going on and inserting a station would likely be awkward at best given how the rail lines are between Suburban & 30th? But even more so, I don't think commute times need to be lengthened by adding additional stops in the city to get someone down to being 2 blocks from their office instead of 4. I definitely think 45 minute rides need to stay that length, not become 50 or 60 minute rides with additional stops.

There are already RR stops in North Philly, Olney, West Philly, East Falls, Manayunk, Germantown, Mount Airy, Chestnut Hill, Far NE, and areas in NE Philly that aren't served by the subway. Many densely populated areas are already served by Regional Rail. I think it starts getting a little cumbersome to put in too many additional in-city stops on existing lines and again, the commute times for those coming from the outer parts of the city and the suburbs, I'm not sure they need to be any longer. If the new trains cut the commute in half (have no idea if this is supposed to happen, just throwing it out there), then that's different, adding a couple of minutes to half the commute wouldn't be a big deal.

Subways get you to many parts of NE Philly, North Philly, and a few parts of South and West. Trolleys get you to places in Center City, University City and West Philly, many more stops than on RR, as it should. And buses go everywhere in the city, both places that trains, subways, and trolleys go and places they don't go.

Now, that's not to say I don't agree that having something on Delaware Ave (that is definitely how I'll always think of it too) would be a good idea. In my opinion, there isn't nearly enough going on down there or at Penn's Landing, when at one time, there was more promise for that. I'd say its more a possibility with the new casinos coming. SEPTA is cheap as we know, and a private entity providing subsidy tends to help things along (like LUCY).

Also agree that areas that have become hip for people to live in more and more like Old City, Queen Village and Art Museum are lacking in easily accessible non-bus transportation, but then the same can be said in the long been popular Rittenhouse Square. But I don't think that's along existing lines. Same with Delaware Ave. I think that starts talk of expanding the system to those areas. And even then, I'd say light rail or subway is a better option not somehow extending RR and putting down train tracks. I think expanding the light rail system to other areas is a great idea, but unless I'm missing something, I don't think that's along existing infrastructure.

With comparisons to DC, I'd say, remember the size of DC and its layout compared to Philly. Also, while I like the Metro a lot, its certainly not flawless. Its got holes, areas where a train doesn't go, where buses are your public transportation option. I know plenty of people who either have a long walk to the Metro, have to take a bus to get to the Metro, or just take the bus to get where they are going, they aren't falling out their front door and are right at a Metro stop. Its not NYC. So, I don't always think the reality of the Metro is all that different than some other city transit systems.

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

Awesome, detailed answer. The part I put in bold was actually what I was thinking when I made this thread. Those tracks for the regional rail are going to be there no matter what, so it figures it'd make the most sense to use them as much as possible. Do any of the regional rail lines run in dense areas within the city where it'd make sense to put in an infill station?

I know that Tokyo and Taipei have done the same with their commuter rail systems and NYC is half-heartedly piloting the idea with special in-city passes for the Metro-North and LIRR. It seems like a very economical way to massively improve mass transit within a city.

You piqued my curiousty. I have some first hand knowledge of some of the RR lines but not all. I went to Google Maps (and they have the rail ines and stops on there, the internet is amazing when you think about it, thanks Al Gore, sorry inside joke) and to be honest what I see and with a non scientific review, albeit quick, a couple of issues with what you propose.

First, all of the RR lines enter the city in one of 3 ways.

1 - North Broad approach (already mostly serviced by subway) the line comes in only 2 or 3 blocks east of Braod and goes underground around Girard into Market East. (no real benefit already served by the Orange Broad Street Subway, plus there is already the North Broad and Temple U stops on the regional rail lines)

2 - South along the Schuckyll River then west through West Philly and into Chester county. this line already stops within the city with little room for additional access or stops, it actually takes advantage already of the RR within the city.

3 - The majority come into Philly from the Northwest through Fairmont park where more than half the lines arrive. The challenge is that it uses the western portion of the Schuckyll river for the train beds (likely because of the grade changes further in) thus there is almost zero population along that route (Fairmont park is huge)

So after a fairly unscientific review, most of the areas that can be used for intracity stops already are. On the map visually it looks like there may be a handful that would add benefit but wide scale use would be limited without new rail infrastructure, at which point it would likely be better served with a different transit technology.

I like all this stuff so am going to do a little additional digging to see if any other lines exist but it looks like for better or worse the topography (use of river beds etc.) may have acted to funnel the lines into the city away from the population cores for the RR lines.

[kyle19125]

I found this old map online, they're surprisingly difficult to find. I counted 28 closed stations from this SEPTA map of 1984, though the resolution is so difficult all I could really count were the dots beyond current locations on the map that I know aren't serviced anymore. There are probably a few other intermediate stops phased out that I couldn't make out the names on.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mayorgreg/3756021485/lightbox/ (broken link)