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Old 06-18-2021, 06:37 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia
2,540 posts, read 1,915,333 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
I don't know if anyone's noticed this, but:

One big reason the GCL is advancing first is because the ROW and tracks are already there.

After Trenton starved PATCO's proposal to build both Corridors A and C, the discussion on the question "So what do we do now to get more rapid transit in South Jersey?" focused entirely on Corridor C — I remember reading articles about a "modified PATCO" option for that corridor when I moved here in the early 1980s — and that was because it would be easier to get construction on the route going thanks to the presence of an intact right-of-way and tracks.

South Jersey got the River Line for the exact same reason, even though no one, not even in South Jersey, saw a reason to build it.

By contrast, no intact rail line runs in the NJ 38 corridor, though I think that parts of a right-of-way for one long abandoned still exist. That means that you'd have land acquisition and eminent domain issues to tackle when building Corridor B unless you ran it as an elevated over NJ 38, which would make the line good for remote vehicle storage and little else. The higher cost and complexity of the project probably contribute to its dormancy. That and Trenton's reluctance to give South Jersey the money it needs to build robust transit infrastructure.



Since PATCO also offers the function of remote vehicle storage — Woodcrest station was added to the line after it opened for that purpose alone — a rail line in the corridor you propose here would cannibalize a good chunk of its traffic.

Unless you built the stations without parking, which I would definitely do in Oaklyn and Audubon. But even then, it might still be too close to the existing PATCO route to draw enough patronage on its own.

I mean you kind of already said it...

The Riverline is probably the biggest failure of NJ Transit ever.

The slowest mass transit line I have ever taken that serves almost no towns or population or employment centers.


Wenohah, NJ... while it has some charming Victorian homes is nothing notable or special.

It is extremely small with only about 2500 people. It does not even have a central business district with any commercial activity whatsoever.

That is the whole problem with the Riverline. It serves very small populated areas... with no commercial activity and the line itself is insanely slow. I have never been on a slower light rail ever before. I was shocked at how slow it rides. (I think 30 MPH)..


So if we are allocating $300 million to a project. It should serve North towards Burlington.

Gloucester County is extremely rural.. literally only 250,000 people. I think it is the most rural county of the Philadelphia MSA actually.

I am all for New Jersey increasing its transit. But just building transit to build it. Is a mistake. Just like the riverline is. I think the Riverline is the worst transit I have ever been on.

(I also am a critic of the KOP extension.) So shortsighted. Although if zoning can be changed.. it has potential, and Norristown also has potential to be another major hub.

Point is.. South Jersey should learn from the Riverline.. which was a huge miss. And a Glassboro line is just as big of a miss...

Gloucester County is so rural... as I said it is the lowest populated county in the entire Philadelphia CSA... Berks County, Pennsylvania is about twice as large as Gloucester.. 250,000 people is extremely small. I think Lancaster County is nearly 2.5 times as large as Gloucester...

And most of those people in Gloucester work in New Castle County, DE or Camden County, NJ. Not Philadelphia..

I do not live in New Jersey. I have family there. I do not dislike the state and honestly I want the best for it. But just building it because its there doesn't mean its right. I think the Riverline is a PRIME example of that.

Also Rowans main graduate programs that would require more collaboration with Philadelphia are located in Camden County.. not in Glassboro.

Last edited by rowhomecity; 06-18-2021 at 06:53 AM..
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Old 06-18-2021, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Center City Philadelphia
427 posts, read 319,283 times
Reputation: 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
I don't know if anyone's noticed this, but:

One big reason the GCL is advancing first is because the ROW and tracks are already there.

After Trenton starved PATCO's proposal to build both Corridors A and C, the discussion on the question "So what do we do now to get more rapid transit in South Jersey?" focused entirely on Corridor C — I remember reading articles about a "modified PATCO" option for that corridor when I moved here in the early 1980s — and that was because it would be easier to get construction on the route going thanks to the presence of an intact right-of-way and tracks.

South Jersey got the River Line for the exact same reason, even though no one, not even in South Jersey, saw a reason to build it.

By contrast, no intact rail line runs in the NJ 38 corridor, though I think that parts of a right-of-way for one long abandoned still exist. That means that you'd have land acquisition and eminent domain issues to tackle when building Corridor B unless you ran it as an elevated over NJ 38, which would make the line good for remote vehicle storage and little else. The higher cost and complexity of the project probably contribute to its dormancy. That and Trenton's reluctance to give South Jersey the money it needs to build robust transit infrastructure.



Since PATCO also offers the function of remote vehicle storage — Woodcrest station was added to the line after it opened for that purpose alone — a rail line in the corridor you propose here would cannibalize a good chunk of its traffic.

Unless you built the stations without parking, which I would definitely do in Oaklyn and Audubon. But even then, it might still be too close to the existing PATCO route to draw enough patronage on its own.
You nailed it. GCL isn't a panacea for SJ but it's still a huge leap forward in progress and the ROW along with railroad towns already exist along the line. Good luck finding the political will and, likely literally a billion dollars+ to fund ROW, eminent domain, and construction through Burlington County. But in the meantime, let's add an ACL stop in Merchantville!

Last edited by bridge12; 06-18-2021 at 01:37 PM..
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Old 06-18-2021, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
12,172 posts, read 6,751,447 times
Reputation: 8790
Quote:
Originally Posted by rowhomecity View Post
That is the whole problem with the Riverline. It serves very small populated areas... with no commercial activity and the line itself is insanely slow. I have never been on a slower light rail ever before. I was shocked at how slow it rides. (I think 30 MPH)..
I think that may be the average speed of the DMU railcars; their top speed ranges from 74 to 87 mph (source).

Which is 13 to 26 mph slower than the top speed of a GE Silverliner IV and 23 to 36 mph less than the Silverliner Vs can do.

But the large difference in top speed doesn't seem to translate into significantly faster total running time. For purposes of comparison, the running time between Trenton Transportation Center and 30th Street Station is 48 minutes; to Jefferson Station, add 10 minutes (train crews change at Suburban, so dwell times there are longer). River Line trains take 59 minutes to get from Trenton Transportation Center to Walter Rand Transportation Center (Broadway PATCO) in Camden.

Trenton Transit Center is 32.4 miles from Center City Philadelphia and 34 from the Camden riverfront; the distance to WRTC is probably 33 miles.

So yes, River Line trains are slower — maybe; it depends on whether that 32.4 miles is measured from 30th Street or Suburban Station (5 minutes running and dwell time from 30th). If it's from Suburban, the time difference can probably be explained by a number of factors that include station dwell times; train speeds through the Commuter Tunnel, the viaduct to 30th Street, and through Zoo Interlocking (which are much slower than on the main line itself); and the slower acceleration of diesel vs. electric locomotivesn (technically speaking and from a regulatory standpoint, every powered railcar on a multiple-unit train is a locomotive).

BTW, there is one activity center and two other points of interest along the River Line. The activity center is Burlington City, where the line runs right through the middle of the city and crosses its main shopping street at grade. (To your point about speed, trains can't operate at their top speed where they run in the street in this fashion for reasons of safety.) The points of interest are Bordentown, a historic community dating back to the early 1700s, and Roebling, site of the wire works where the cables for the Brooklyn and Golden Gate suspension bridges, among others, were spun. Burlington is probably the chief passenger draw on the line; I'd need to look up NJT's traffic reports to confirm this.

Quote:
So if we are allocating $300 million to a project. It should serve North towards Burlington.
I'm not disputing that a rail line in Corridor A will deliver more bang for the buck than one in Corridor C. But $300 million won't produce a complete rail line ready to carry passengers in Corridor A, and yes, sometimes, the point is to build something (see the Route 100 spur).

Quote:
Point is.. South Jersey should learn from the Riverline.. which was a huge miss. And a Glassboro line is just as big of a miss...
Again, talk of building rail transit in Corridor C has never really died since the effort to complete the entire three-route PATCO system died in the early 1970s, while talk of completing Corridor A has been desultory at best.

And if your argument against building Corridor C is that many of the Gloucester Countians who commute outside the county to work are headed to Camden County rather than Philadelphia, well, where does Corridor C pass through on the way to Philly? It may not serve Cherry Hill, which is indeed the biggest miss of all, but it would be super-convenient for people heading, say, between Rowan University's main campus and its medical school. I'd still say it's less of a miss and a waste than the River Line was, and maybe even justifiable (the Feds apparently think so, for the GCL has gotten FTA funding. Then again, to be fair, so has the Route 100 spur — but while ill-thought-out, that line isn't a total waste either).
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Old 06-18-2021, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
2,540 posts, read 1,915,333 times
Reputation: 2657
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
I think that may be the average speed of the DMU railcars; their top speed ranges from 74 to 87 mph (source).

Which is 13 to 26 mph slower than the top speed of a GE Silverliner IV and 23 to 36 mph less than the Silverliner Vs can do.

But the large difference in top speed doesn't seem to translate into significantly faster total running time. For purposes of comparison, the running time between Trenton Transportation Center and 30th Street Station is 48 minutes; to Jefferson Station, add 10 minutes (train crews change at Suburban, so dwell times there are longer). River Line trains take 59 minutes to get from Trenton Transportation Center to Walter Rand Transportation Center (Broadway PATCO) in Camden.

Trenton Transit Center is 32.4 miles from Center City Philadelphia and 34 from the Camden riverfront; the distance to WRTC is probably 33 miles.

So yes, River Line trains are slower — maybe; it depends on whether that 32.4 miles is measured from 30th Street or Suburban Station (5 minutes running and dwell time from 30th). If it's from Suburban, the time difference can probably be explained by a number of factors that include station dwell times; train speeds through the Commuter Tunnel, the viaduct to 30th Street, and through Zoo Interlocking (which are much slower than on the main line itself); and the slower acceleration of diesel vs. electric locomotivesn (technically speaking and from a regulatory standpoint, every powered railcar on a multiple-unit train is a locomotive).

BTW, there is one activity center and two other points of interest along the River Line. The activity center is Burlington City, where the line runs right through the middle of the city and crosses its main shopping street at grade. (To your point about speed, trains can't operate at their top speed where they run in the street in this fashion for reasons of safety.) The points of interest are Bordentown, a historic community dating back to the early 1700s, and Roebling, site of the wire works where the cables for the Brooklyn and Golden Gate suspension bridges, among others, were spun. Burlington is probably the chief passenger draw on the line; I'd need to look up NJT's traffic reports to confirm this.



I'm not disputing that a rail line in Corridor A will deliver more bang for the buck than one in Corridor C. But $300 million won't produce a complete rail line ready to carry passengers in Corridor A, and yes, sometimes, the point is to build something (see the Route 100 spur).



Again, talk of building rail transit in Corridor C has never really died since the effort to complete the entire three-route PATCO system died in the early 1970s, while talk of completing Corridor A has been desultory at best.

And if your argument against building Corridor C is that many of the Gloucester Countians who commute outside the county to work are headed to Camden County rather than Philadelphia, well, where does Corridor C pass through on the way to Philly? It may not serve Cherry Hill, which is indeed the biggest miss of all, but it would be super-convenient for people heading, say, between Rowan University's main campus and its medical school. I'd still say it's less of a miss and a waste than the River Line was, and maybe even justifiable (the Feds apparently think so, for the GCL has gotten FTA funding. Then again, to be fair, so has the Route 100 spur — but while ill-thought-out, that line isn't a total waste either).

I imagine within the next month or maybe two... a major Federal infrastructure bill will be passed.

My guess it will be close to $1 Trillion and I foresee a nice chunk of that going to transit. Biden has always loved his trains.

I just hope SEPTA can improve its KOP line proposal... which is definitely needed.. but falls a little short. That KOP line if done correctly with proper zoning changes and a slightly altered route, could propel Norristown into a major dense suburban residential hub...

And I hope NJ Transit can put together a line that serves South Jersey well....

I do not see how putting transit in the most rural county of all the Philadelphia MSA is a positive investment. But others think different. Gloucester County is very small.. again the smallest county in the entire MSA in terms of population. A town like Wennoah has a population of just 2500 people with no walkable business district whatsoever.

Its like saying we should build an 8 lane highway just because. There is a clear path. Why not??

Rowan is notable... but it really is pretty regionally anchored and sees no major cross commute into Philadelphia itself.

I rather South Jersey invest into improving its connectivity with Princeton than Rowan. It will definitely yield more economic opportunities and growth.

Not to mention a Burlington line connects Mercer County which is also another major employment hub.

The Riverline is the worse transit I have ever taken. Just building a train line.. to build it. Does little good.

Raleigh, North Carolina is actually seeing this happen first hand. It invested $500+ Million in a light rail network that goes virtually nowhere... and it is a complete failure.

Last edited by rowhomecity; 06-18-2021 at 04:10 PM..
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Old 06-18-2021, 04:09 PM
 
1,324 posts, read 1,432,394 times
Reputation: 1716
Quote:
Originally Posted by rowhomecity View Post
I imagine within the next month or maybe two... a major Federal infrastructure bill will be passed.

My guess it will be close to $1 Trillion and I foresee a nice chunk of that going to transit. Biden has always loved his trains.

I just hope SEPTA can improve its KOP line proposal... which is definitely needed.. but falls a little short.

And I hope NJ Transit can put together a line that serves South Jersey well....

I do not see how putting transit in the most rural county of all the Philadelphia MSA is a positive investment. But others think different.

Not to mention a Burlington line connects Mercer County which is also another major employment hub.

The Riverline is the worse transit I have ever taken. Just building a train line.. to build it. Does little good.
RiverLine and GCL are/will be failures because at that distance, light rail does not make sense as an alternative to cars. Light rail should be for heavily urbanized areas with much worse traffic such as the other NJ Transit light rails up north in Newark and Hudson County (Bayonne, Jersey City, Hoboken, Weehawken, etc.). Commuter rail for suburbs needs to be heavy rail to run at higher speeds and compete with driving cars along the highways. Take a look at those lines. Not only is the area they serve different, but the length of the line is much shorter than what they have/will have in South Jersey. They only decided for light rail for South Jersey not because it made sense but because it was cheaper. People would feel much better about and would more often ride the River Line if it was heavy rail. The GCL will just be a repeat of this mistake. They should learn from that and make it heavy rail and take it out to Millville. Screw Wenonah. If they don’t want a station, don’t give them one.

I don’t understand how a Mount Holly line will connect to Mercer County. Nowhere along that route is that close to Mercer County. People would not drive down from Mercer County to ride that line when they can just stay closer to home and use SEPTA. The only connection to Mercer County would be at Pennsauken via then traveling north on the River Line. No one in their right mind who isn’t completely desperate would do that.

Don’t hold your breath on any infrastructure package. And more or less anything with rail in it will never get any kind of Republican support. And we all know Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema are tanking the effort anyway.
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Old 06-18-2021, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
12,172 posts, read 6,751,447 times
Reputation: 8790
Quote:
Originally Posted by rowhomecity View Post
I imagine within the next month or maybe two... a major Federal infrastructure bill will be passed.

My guess it will be close to $1 Trillion and I foresee a nice chunk of that going to transit. Biden has always loved his trains.
I hope so, but if the whole we-gotta-make-this-package-bipartisan thing does succeed, there will be less for transit in it than either President Biden or Secretary Pete would like to see, because many Republicans have this idea that the roads pay for themselves while transit is a money sink. (The bipartisan compromise would raise money to pay for the package by jacking up user fees, mainly highway tolls but probably also taxes on motor fuel, which are providing a diminishing share of transportation funding because of both increased fuel economy and the growth of electric and hybrid vehicles as part of the overall mix.)

Quote:
I just hope SEPTA can improve its KOP line proposal... which is definitely needed.. but falls a little short. That KOP line if done correctly with proper zoning changes and a slightly altered route, could propel Norristown into a major dense suburban residential hub...
The thing I find interesting about the NHSL spur proposal is this:

All these people are now coming out of the woodwork criticizing the chosen route after the alternatives analysis has been completed and the "locally preferred alternative" route chosen. The project is now in the preliminary design and engineering phase. It's really too late to alter the chosen route significantly (the one main change came before preliminary design work began, when SEPTA moved the section paralleling the Pennsylvania Turnpike to the other side of the highway to avoid literally running through the backyards of a bunch of houses in a 1950s KofP subdivision).

Geographically speaking, how could an altered route for the 100 spur change Norristown's fortunes? The line is set to diverge from the existing route near King Manor, where it turns northeast to reach Norristown already; the spur will head west to KofP from that point. ISTR plans call for a wye junction between the spur and the main NHSL, which will make Norristown-KofP direct service possible.

Quote:
Not to mention a Burlington line connects Mercer County which is also another major employment hub.
Come again? You've just described the route of the River Line, which runs from Camden to Mercer counties via western Burlington County. The River Line runs north-northeast from Camden to Trenton, roughly following the Delaware; Corridor A to Moorestown heads east-northeast from Camden, roughly following NJ 38. There's a good bit of distance between this line and Mercer County, and I can't think of an alteration that would allow it to serve both.

Quote:
Raleigh, North Carolina is actually seeing this happen first hand. It invested $500+ Million in a light rail network that goes virtually nowhere... and it is a complete failure.
Wait, is that line actually up and running yet? I don't think it is. And sure enough, not only is it not running, all work on it was stopped in 2019. The routing of the line was plagued by controversy throughout the design phase, and Duke University's refusal to allow it to pass through part of its medical center doomed it.

And to borrow your highway analogy: They didn't build an eight-lane freeway, but they did build a four-lane one serving this corridor, NJ 55. It backs up at peak hours now. That suggests to me that there is travel demand in Corridor C that a light rail line might serve successfully, especially if the line then parallels NJ 42, which this one will. Gloucester County may be the least populous of the three core South Jersey counties, but it's not all farms, and development is headed down that freeway; besides, I do believe that ultimately, they would like to extend service to Vineland, which is the largest city in New Jersey tomato country, the Cumberland County seat and the largest of three adjacent cities (the other two being Millville and Bridgeton) whose populations total a little over 100,000 — more people than live in Trenton now.

Last edited by MarketStEl; 06-18-2021 at 11:28 PM..
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Old 06-19-2021, 04:21 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,806 posts, read 32,638,809 times
Reputation: 10247
Quote:
Originally Posted by rowhomecity View Post
I imagine within the next month or maybe two... a major Federal infrastructure bill will be passed.

My guess it will be close to $1 Trillion and I foresee a nice chunk of that going to transit. Biden has always loved his trains.

I just hope SEPTA can improve its KOP line proposal... which is definitely needed.. but falls a little short. That KOP line if done correctly with proper zoning changes and a slightly altered route, could propel Norristown into a major dense suburban residential hub...

And I hope NJ Transit can put together a line that serves South Jersey well....

I do not see how putting transit in the most rural county of all the Philadelphia MSA is a positive investment. But others think different. Gloucester County is very small.. again the smallest county in the entire MSA in terms of population. A town like Wennoah has a population of just 2500 people with no walkable business district whatsoever.

Its like saying we should build an 8 lane highway just because. There is a clear path. Why not??

Rowan is notable... but it really is pretty regionally anchored and sees no major cross commute into Philadelphia itself.

I rather South Jersey invest into improving its connectivity with Princeton than Rowan. It will definitely yield more economic opportunities and growth.

Not to mention a Burlington line connects Mercer County which is also another major employment hub.

The Riverline is the worse transit I have ever taken. Just building a train line.. to build it. Does little good.

Raleigh, North Carolina is actually seeing this happen first hand. It invested $500+ Million in a light rail network that goes virtually nowhere... and it is a complete failure.
Do you comprehend that a Gloucester County line would be picking up riders from southern Gloucester and Salem County? In my opinion, your opinion is wrong.

I don't think that you understand how people interact in South Jersey. Mercer County is seldom a destination. That's all you seem to be worried about. I used to go to a semi annual sale at a shop in Princeton. That was before 295 went north of Route 206. That shop closed more than 20 years ago. I haven't known anyone who went to Princeton since then. There is more interaction between Burlington, Camden, and Gloucester counties.

You also seem oblivious to how built up Route 38 is. It would cost more to acquire land to build a line just to Moorestown than to acquire all of the needed property in Gloucester County which would serve 2 counties as well as a few communities in southern Camden County. There is a bus line that gets a lot of ridership between the Moorestown Mall and the Haddonfield PATCO station. It goes straight up Kings Highway. Neither was a factor when PATCO proposed the line to Moorestown.

Mercer County is not and never has been South Jersey. The River Line links Trenton, which is in Mercer County, to Camden. No one has ever been interested. Princeton is a beautiful place. The shops are extremely expensive. Linking to Princeton makes as much sense as linking to Trenton. . .none.
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Old 06-19-2021, 04:43 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,806 posts, read 32,638,809 times
Reputation: 10247
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
I don't know if anyone's noticed this, but:

One big reason the GCL is advancing first is because the ROW and tracks are already there.

After Trenton starved PATCO's proposal to build both Corridors A and C, the discussion on the question "So what do we do now to get more rapid transit in South Jersey?" focused entirely on Corridor C — I remember reading articles about a "modified PATCO" option for that corridor when I moved here in the early 1980s — and that was because it would be easier to get construction on the route going thanks to the presence of an intact right-of-way and tracks.

South Jersey got the River Line for the exact same reason, even though no one, not even in South Jersey, saw a reason to build it.

By contrast, no intact rail line runs in the NJ 38 corridor, though I think that parts of a right-of-way for one long abandoned still exist. That means that you'd have land acquisition and eminent domain issues to tackle when building Corridor B unless you ran it as an elevated over NJ 38, which would make the line good for remote vehicle storage and little else. The higher cost and complexity of the project probably contribute to its dormancy. That and Trenton's reluctance to give South Jersey the money it needs to build robust transit infrastructure.



Since PATCO also offers the function of remote vehicle storage — Woodcrest station was added to the line after it opened for that purpose alone — a rail line in the corridor you propose here would cannibalize a good chunk of its traffic.

Unless you built the stations without parking, which I would definitely do in Oaklyn and Audubon. But even then, it might still be too close to the existing PATCO route to draw enough patronage on its own.
You're absolutely right on all counts. The Woodcrest station was added for exactly the reason that you cited. It draws from points north and south along 295. A Gloucester County line would be like adding a parking lot to Woodcrest, for people from points to the north.
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Old 06-19-2021, 04:59 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,806 posts, read 32,638,809 times
Reputation: 10247
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
I hope so, but if the whole we-gotta-make-this-package-bipartisan thing does succeed, there will be less for transit in it than either President Biden or Secretary Pete would like to see, because many Republicans have this idea that the roads pay for themselves while transit is a money sink. (The bipartisan compromise would raise money to pay for the package by jacking up user fees, mainly highway tolls but probably also taxes on motor fuel, which are providing a diminishing share of transportation funding because of both increased fuel economy and the growth of electric and hybrid vehicles as part of the overall mix.)



The thing I find interesting about the NHSL spur proposal is this:

All these people are now coming out of the woodwork criticizing the chosen route after the alternatives analysis has been completed and the "locally preferred alternative" route chosen. The project is now in the preliminary design and engineering phase. It's really too late to alter the chosen route significantly (the one main change came before preliminary design work began, when SEPTA moved the section paralleling the Pennsylvania Turnpike to the other side of the highway to avoid literally running through the backyards of a bunch of houses in a 1950s KofP subdivision).

Geographically speaking, how could an altered route for the 100 spur change Norristown's fortunes? The line is set to diverge from the existing route near King Manor, where it turns northeast to reach Norristown already; the spur will head west to KofP from that point. ISTR plans call for a wye junction between the spur and the main NHSL, which will make Norristown-KofP direct service possible.



Come again? You've just described the route of the River Line, which runs from Camden to Mercer counties via western Burlington County. The River Line runs north-northeast from Camden to Trenton, roughly following the Delaware; Corridor A to Moorestown heads east-northeast from Camden, roughly following NJ 38. There's a good bit of distance between this line and Mercer County, and I can't think of an alteration that would allow it to serve both.



Wait, is that line actually up and running yet? I don't think it is. And sure enough, not only is it not running, all work on it was stopped in 2019. The routing of the line was plagued by controversy throughout the design phase, and Duke University's refusal to allow it to pass through part of its medical center doomed it.

And to borrow your highway analogy: They didn't build an eight-lane freeway, but they did build a four-lane one serving this corridor, NJ 55. It backs up at peak hours now. That suggests to me that there is travel demand in Corridor C that a light rail line might serve successfully, especially if the line then parallels NJ 42, which this one will. Gloucester County may be the least populous of the three core South Jersey counties, but it's not all farms, and development is headed down that freeway; besides, I do believe that ultimately, they would like to extend service to Vineland, which is the largest city in New Jersey tomato country, the Cumberland County seat and the largest of three adjacent cities (the other two being Millville and Bridgeton) whose populations total a little over 100,000 — more people than live in Trenton now.
You're right again. There is one commuter rail line in NC. It's in Charlotte, which is Mecklenburg County. It's very successful and a 2nd line will be added, but the line cited by that poster which was to be located in the Triangle, was DOA several years ago, thanks to Duke.
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Old 06-23-2021, 08:05 AM
 
Location: South Philadelphia
7,370 posts, read 4,725,838 times
Reputation: 5521
https://phillyyimby.com/2021/06/rend...l-b-moore.html


The Blue Horizon is coming back to life as apartments. I went once when it was still an active boxing arena.
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