U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Pennsylvania > Philadelphia
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-22-2011, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, FL
2,049 posts, read 2,321,144 times
Reputation: 1613

Advertisements

I didn't really mean to get into this class debate, but Springfield as "upper middle-class"? No. I have plenty of family in Springfield and they are certainly far from upper-middle-class. From Wikipedia: "According to sociologist Max Weber the upper middle class consists of well-educated professionals with graduate degrees and comfortable incomes.....Typical professions for this class include lawyers, physicians, dentists, engineers, accountants, professors, architects, economists, political scientists, pharmacists, school principals, civil service executives and civilian contractors." Unless there is some exclusive upscale area of Springfield that I don't know about, that doesn't sound like Springfield. I think it could have described certain areas of Drexel Hill years ago, but not sure about now. Really, I'm not putting Springfield down, and maybe I'm wrong, but I think of it as (primarily) a nice middle-class suburb.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-22-2011, 09:13 PM
 
9 posts, read 7,896 times
Reputation: 10
I haven't caught up with all of these posts, but on the subject of the Glen Mills / Granite Run movie theaters, I only let my kid go to Regal in north DE because Granite Run mall is a zoo on movie nights to the point that they have to bring in police, and also every weekend there is a break-in of a car at Painter's crossing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2011, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
15,952 posts, read 12,391,767 times
Reputation: 7750
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpomp View Post
No one is going to agree here. People who live in Delco or the area know that Springfield is a solid suburb or middle class people with some exceptions on the higher and lower end. The majority of Delco is middle/upper middle class anyway, there are just some towns that border philly that are the exception.
I never expected this to turn into some kind of bashing Springfield Delco thread, or comparing it to Montgomery County. I haven't lived there since the 1990s when I owned a store in the Strawbridges Mall. It was pretty classy then but I don't know how much iit might have changed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2011, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Bella Vista
2,295 posts, read 1,695,884 times
Reputation: 1921
Quote:
Originally Posted by couldntthinkofaclevername View Post
If you have to work for your own opportunities, you'll always be working class. Being from a working class family simply means your parents were working class and you grew up working class in everything except having to work for your own opportunities. If you had to do everything yourself, were completely on your own, then you're working class no matter what, because everything you have wouldn't exist if it weren't for you.
If someone has an MBA and is the CEO of a fortune 500 company making millions of dollars a year, they are not a part of the working class, regardless of how hard they worked and how little help they received in achieving their success.

You seem to to think working class people means "people who work hard" whereas upper class or upper middle class means "lazy people who had everything in life handed to them."

That is not what these things mean. There are tons of really lazy working class people, and many hard working upper class people who had nothing handed to them and had to work hard for everything they earned.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalon08 View Post
I didn't really mean to get into this class debate, but Springfield as "upper middle-class"? No. I have plenty of family in Springfield and they are certainly far from upper-middle-class. From Wikipedia: "According to sociologist Max Weber the upper middle class consists of well-educated professionals with graduate degrees and comfortable incomes.....Typical professions for this class include lawyers, physicians, dentists, engineers, accountants, professors, architects, economists, political scientists, pharmacists, school principals, civil service executives and civilian contractors." Unless there is some exclusive upscale area of Springfield that I don't know about, that doesn't sound like Springfield. I think it could have described certain areas of Drexel Hill years ago, but not sure about now. Really, I'm not putting Springfield down, and maybe I'm wrong, but I think of it as (primarily) a nice middle-class suburb.
I think your absolutely right, and if you want to simply refer to it as a middle class town, I think that's very accurate. I was calling it a middle class to upper middle class, because although they are not the majority, there is fairly large portion of families within Springfield that would considered upper middle class. About half of the families in Springfield pull in over 100,000 a year, and of those, over 20% are making more than 150,000. The second part of the equation, educational attainment, is harder to come by but I'd be willing to bet that a fair share of those families that make that make that much have someone in their household that holds a post graduate degree of some kind.

There's more than twice as many middle class people in Springfield than upper middle class people. They make up the vast majority of the people living there. But the data also indicates that there are more upper class people than lower middle class, working class, and poor - combined. That's significant. So while Springfield is a very solidly middle class town, it skews far more towards upper middle class than lower middle class.

Again though, no issue with someone calling it solidly middle class. In many ways my talk about how the upper middle class greatly outnumbered lower middle class people, was less about calling Springfield upper middle class, more about pointing out how absurd it is to call springfield lower middle class.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-23-2011, 12:39 AM
 
172 posts, read 198,005 times
Reputation: 35
I do miss the Red Lobster behind the Granite Run AMC. Not sure why they closed. The Macy's at Springfield Mall is great, but 10 years ago it was really creepy and falling apart. On the outside it still looks the same. Before Macy's it was Bamberger's, which was always part of Macy's corporate. Not sure of the story but the name was dropped in the 80's. Bloomingdale's is a luxury division of Macy's and should have taken the old Strawbridge's (now Target).

I don't know why the AMC Marple 10 didn't insist on moving to the old Strawbridge's site at Springfield Mall. They do like to be in malls. And I lived near an AMC in Houston that opened in 1989, around the same time as Marple 10, and was replaced by a huge 24-screen complex across the street in 1999. There were actually rumors not too long ago that AMC Granite Run 8 would move into the main mall building there, but those plans fell through. Not 100% sure but I think the "Peking" lounge at Granite Run was originally a small AMC that moved. I do remember the theaters at MacDade Mall and where Modell's is. They were both much smaller than the current pair of AMCs in Delco which are from a later era. Most recently the MacDade Mall one was a United Artists, a brand now owned by Regal, but I suspect it was originally a General Cinema (GCC) like the one by Putt-Putt. GCC was a huge chain found in every big city for a few decades. They were like the AMC of the 60's and 70's. AMC never caught on until the 80's. The Plymouth Meeting AMC was one of the last GCCs ever built, around 1998, and AMC swallowed GCC in 2002. I knew of a GCC in Houston from 1981 that was sold to AMC individually in 1986. Not sure what that was about.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-23-2011, 04:38 AM
 
958 posts, read 254,808 times
Reputation: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalon08 View Post
I didn't really mean to get into this class debate, but Springfield as "upper middle-class"? No. I have plenty of family in Springfield and they are certainly far from upper-middle-class. From Wikipedia: "According to sociologist Max Weber the upper middle class consists of well-educated professionals with graduate degrees and comfortable incomes.....Typical professions for this class include lawyers, physicians, dentists, engineers, accountants, professors, architects, economists, political scientists, pharmacists, school principals, civil service executives and civilian contractors." Unless there is some exclusive upscale area of Springfield that I don't know about, that doesn't sound like Springfield. I think it could have described certain areas of Drexel Hill years ago, but not sure about now. Really, I'm not putting Springfield down, and maybe I'm wrong, but I think of it as (primarily) a nice middle-class suburb.
It's middle to upper-middle class.

Which means that there are people living there who are in all levels in between those classes as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flashfearless View Post
I haven't caught up with all of these posts, but on the subject of the Glen Mills / Granite Run movie theaters, I only let my kid go to Regal in north DE because Granite Run mall is a zoo on movie nights to the point that they have to bring in police, and also every weekend there is a break-in of a car at Painter's crossing.
LOL they have to bring in police to Granite Run? Since when?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phillies2011 View Post
If someone has an MBA and is the CEO of a fortune 500 company making millions of dollars a year, they are not a part of the working class, regardless of how hard they worked and how little help they received in achieving their success.

You seem to to think working class people means "people who work hard" whereas upper class or upper middle class means "lazy people who had everything in life handed to them."

That is not what these things mean. There are tons of really lazy working class people, and many hard working upper class people who had nothing handed to them and had to work hard for everything they earned.






I think your absolutely right, and if you want to simply refer to it as a middle class town, I think that's very accurate. I was calling it a middle class to upper middle class, because although they are not the majority, there is fairly large portion of families within Springfield that would considered upper middle class. About half of the families in Springfield pull in over 100,000 a year, and of those, over 20% are making more than 150,000. The second part of the equation, educational attainment, is harder to come by but I'd be willing to bet that a fair share of those families that make that make that much have someone in their household that holds a post graduate degree of some kind.

There's more than twice as many middle class people in Springfield than upper middle class people. They make up the vast majority of the people living there. But the data also indicates that there are more upper class people than lower middle class, working class, and poor - combined. That's significant. So while Springfield is a very solidly middle class town, it skews far more towards upper middle class than lower middle class.

Again though, no issue with someone calling it solidly middle class. In many ways my talk about how the upper middle class greatly outnumbered lower middle class people, was less about calling Springfield upper middle class, more about pointing out how absurd it is to call springfield lower middle class.
Yes, they are. They are working class because they would be right back where they were if they didn't get that job. That's what it means, the opportunities and footing you were born into. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Marx. Everybody wants to try to define these terms but they were defined already by the people who came up with the terms in the first place. It's not the same as socioeconomic status, at all.

Just like in the "Andy Reid" thread, I would appreciate it if you were an adult and didn't twist my words around or put words in my mouth. You don't know me so don't talk to me like you do. Show some respect for somebody who doesn't need to resort to the same tactics you resort to whenever you can't refute something or actually argue a point.

I'm done responding to you in this thread; in fact I'm done responding in this thread at all after this post. Continue to speak incorrectly about basketball and sociological concepts all you like. I won't be responding to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magicoz View Post
I do miss the Red Lobster behind the Granite Run AMC. Not sure why they closed. The Macy's at Springfield Mall is great, but 10 years ago it was really creepy and falling apart. On the outside it still looks the same. Before Macy's it was Bamberger's, which was always part of Macy's corporate. Not sure of the story but the name was dropped in the 80's. Bloomingdale's is a luxury division of Macy's and should have taken the old Strawbridge's (now Target).

I don't know why the AMC Marple 10 didn't insist on moving to the old Strawbridge's site at Springfield Mall. They do like to be in malls. And I lived near an AMC in Houston that opened in 1989, around the same time as Marple 10, and was replaced by a huge 24-screen complex across the street in 1999. There were actually rumors not too long ago that AMC Granite Run 8 would move into the main mall building there, but those plans fell through. Not 100% sure but I think the "Peking" lounge at Granite Run was originally a small AMC that moved. I do remember the theaters at MacDade Mall and where Modell's is. They were both much smaller than the current pair of AMCs in Delco which are from a later era. Most recently the MacDade Mall one was a United Artists, a brand now owned by Regal, but I suspect it was originally a General Cinema (GCC) like the one by Putt-Putt. GCC was a huge chain found in every big city for a few decades. They were like the AMC of the 60's and 70's. AMC never caught on until the 80's. The Plymouth Meeting AMC was one of the last GCCs ever built, around 1998, and AMC swallowed GCC in 2002. I knew of a GCC in Houston from 1981 that was sold to AMC individually in 1986. Not sure what that was about.
10 years ago the Macy's in Springfield Mall was falling apart? No, it definitely wasn't. Also, Bloomingdales would never take that spot. It's a suburban spot.

Marple 10 is also not going to move anywhere. Why would they? This isn't the city, something I seem to need to re-iterate over and over again.

Wasn't aware of those Granite Run 8 rumors. Do you have any source for that?

Yes, I remember them too, especially the MacDade Mall one which was in business into the 2000s and was frequented by plenty of people. The Modells space cinema was a Sameric, by the way. Before that, I forget what it was, not having been alive back then.

There's actually a site where you can see all of the old cinemas in different places. I'll see if I can find it for you. This might not be the one I'm looking for but it seems pretty good: Movie Theaters in Pennsylvania - Cinema Treasures

This is also a great site for old photos, mainly of the Clifton Heights/Westbrook Park area: When Life Was Black & White
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-23-2011, 08:57 AM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
15,952 posts, read 12,391,767 times
Reputation: 7750
What I am getting from the conversation is that the Blue Route has actually caused Springfield to go downhill. Perhaps that massive shift in traffic patterns caused it to be much less rural and more urban.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-23-2011, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Bella Vista
2,295 posts, read 1,695,884 times
Reputation: 1921
Quote:
Originally Posted by couldntthinkofaclevername View Post
Yes, they are. They are working class because they would be right back where they were if they didn't get that job. That's what it means, the opportunities and footing you were born into. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Marx. Everybody wants to try to define these terms but they were defined already by the people who came up with the terms in the first place. It's not the same as socioeconomic status, at all.

Just like in the "Andy Reid" thread, I would appreciate it if you were an adult and didn't twist my words around or put words in my mouth. You don't know me so don't talk to me like you do. Show some respect for somebody who doesn't need to resort to the same tactics you resort to whenever you can't refute something or actually argue a point.

I'm done responding to you in this thread; in fact I'm done responding in this thread at all after this post. Continue to speak incorrectly about basketball and sociological concepts all you like. I won't be responding to it.
haha wow. I have no idea what I said that has caused such anger in you. Regardless of whether you respond or not. What you are saying is absolutely wrong. If you make a million dollars and own a graduate degree you are not working class. Period.

Marx? First off I have no idea why you would bring up Marx. The communist manifesto was written prior to the civil war! The world was a different place then, and his ideas of class have little bearing on how we define class today. Marx considered the working class anyone who worked for a wage, anyone who didn't have the means of production himself. If we still used Marx's definition of working class, anyone who doesn't own a business is working class. But that simply isn't the case.

When someone speaks of the working class you should NOT assume that they are talking about Marx's definitions, if I wanted to talk about Marx's ideas of the working class, I wouldn't be calling it a working class, I'd be calling it the proletariat and honestly such a conversation about early 21st century Springfield, would be fairly ridiculous. Also Marx absolutely did not come up with the term "working class".

You seem to take issue when I disagree with you, but please know it isn't personal. If you want to post on these boards though, know that what you say will sometimes be scrutinized. The post you made that preceded the one that I made that angered you so much was filled with inaccuracies. It's been quite a long time since undergraduate philosophy classes for me as well, so it's okay if you make a mistake, but you shouldn't get so angry when it's pointed out. Class is not based on opportunities, if you had to work for you success, you are not necessarily working class. Sorry if it offends you but what you are saying is false, and no major philosopher, economist, etc would agree with you... not even the long dead Karl Marx.

Opportunity has nothing to do with class, it has to do with the class your family was in when you were growing up. If you were dirt poor and homeless as a child, had to scratch and claw and working 60 hours a week to pay for college, but then became a brilliant engineer and started your own company and made millions of dollars a year, according to you that person would be working class because he grew up without opportunities. But according to Marx and basically every other authority on the subject that person would NOT be working class.

Last edited by phillies2011; 12-23-2011 at 10:17 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-23-2011, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Bella Vista
2,295 posts, read 1,695,884 times
Reputation: 1921
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boompa View Post
What I am getting from the conversation is that the Blue Route has actually caused Springfield to go downhill. Perhaps that massive shift in traffic patterns caused it to be much less rural and more urban.
Springfield was far from rural before the blue route and it is far from urban after the blue route. The township of springfield is very much suburban today just as it was 20 years ago. It is also still very much middle class.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-23-2011, 03:17 PM
 
172 posts, read 198,005 times
Reputation: 35
The Clifton Heights cinema was at least a GCC at one time. Two websites confirm this, "Pleasant Family Shopping" and "Cinema Treasures". I know this sounds funny but I admire Broomall. Really if I had to choose another place to live that would be one of my first choices. I appreciate the Jewish and white-collar character of it. And it still feels like it did in the 70's. West Chester Pike looks scary though, but I think a lot of the trouble comes from West Philly/Upper Darby and West Chester/Coatesville, neither of which general area is far away at all.

Today I wrote a plan to restructure the malls/department stores in Delaware County. Details to come later.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2011 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Pennsylvania > Philadelphia
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top