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Old 01-21-2012, 03:21 PM
 
172 posts, read 190,240 times
Reputation: 35
Why are there so many ghetto suburbs of Philly but not other big cities? I think of the "five Cs": Camden, Chester, Cheltenham, Coatesville, and Clementon NJ. Wilmington DE is bad too. Not to mention much of Delaware County along MacDade, Chester Pike, etc is a ...dump.

Last edited by Tone509; 01-22-2012 at 07:12 AM.. Reason: watch the stereotypes

 
Old 01-21-2012, 04:41 PM
 
Location: South Jersey
7,789 posts, read 9,955,820 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankgn87 View Post
Its up to $20k now. Someone will snitch the animals out soon
looks like they got em!! Excellent!!
 
Old 01-21-2012, 04:59 PM
 
958 posts, read 231,372 times
Reputation: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by rotodome View Post
You are right that political boundaries of cities can be misleading, since they are pretty arbitrary and their differ from city to city depending on how the local politics have developed over a given region's history. Just looking at the city proper population makes a city like Boston seem a lot smaller than it really is, and a city like Phoenix seem a lot bigger. Metropolitan Statistical areas (while not perfect) give a better picture of a city's true size, IMO. But Philly is both the 5th largest city proper, AND the 5th largest MSA, so I think it's pretty safe to say it's fairly #5. And it is really nowhere remotely close to surpassing Los Angeles by any measure, and won't sniff that #3 spot unless Chicago keeps dropping LOTS of population. Philly will be duking it out with Houston, Dallas, DC & Miami for that #4 metro slot over the coming years, though.

I agree 100% that Philadelphia does not completely deserve the reputation it has, and that it gets painted in an unfairly negative light my the press, just because it's a lazy sensational story. It's really annoying and pi**es me off. But the whole point of the murder "rate" is that it's the number of murders per 100,000 people, not total number of murders. Total number of murders means nothing without the population number. A larger population does NOT skew the rate. And increasing the land area measured might not necessarily help with the murder rate much either, just because lots of the most dangerous areas are outside of political city limits of many large cities.
And as much as Philly doesn't fully deserve its reputation, places NYC and especially LA (who I think you were maybe projecting some unfair & outdated stereotypes upon in your previous post) deserve credit for having had such dramatic decreases in their violent crime rates over the last 30 years, and having dealt with some pretty tough problems. Philly doesn't need to apologize for anything, but it also doesn't need to make excuses - especially because no one cares about excuses. Philly just needs to make more progress in this area, and I assume everyone would agree about that.
LA is one of the most suburban cities in the country, if not the most suburban. Same goes for Pheonix, Dallas, Houston, etc. Have you seen the neighborhoods they screw up? They look like our suburbs with the single homes and tract housing. Screw that. I'm not giving them one bit of credit for any "clean up" in violent crime that they had no excuse to have in the first place compared to East Coast cities, especially when so many of their people are out of control well outside of those areas. LA is almost 500 square miles large. That is flat out ridiculous. If you took the same amount of square miles, Philadelphia would easily be Number 3 behind Chicago. LA has a pathetic amount of people given how large the city limits are and the way they build so many apartment buildings. There really isn't a single metro in the Sunbelt or West Coast that can compare to an older, East Coast one. Look at how large LA's MSA is. It covers only about 1,000 square miles less than our CSA does, and our CSA doesn't even include places that are very much a part of the area. San Francisco is really the only place I'll admit is anything like an East Coast metro and even that is only because of the older neighborhoods in parts of it.

Places like LA made their own problems. They didn't have generations of poor "white" immigrants on top of the minorities (who are the only ones out there who know a damn thing about struggling) they have now. There are so many jobs out there compared to out here that it's not even funny, and their schools might have problems without a doubt but they have no excuse for that given how much money that state has. LA should've never been as violent as it was. That whole state is simply out of control. There's no order whatsoever so kids and "adults" can do whatever they want.

I give places like NYC and Chicago all the credit in the world (though at the same time, let's not forget all of the things both cities have had going for them for decades now). I will never extend that to places where there's abundant sunshine and where there are no older, rowhome or tenement-lined neighborhoods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerseykids2011 View Post
Or, say, Olney at 6:30om...
One section in a very large city.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magicoz View Post
Why are there so many ghetto suburbs of Philly but not other big cities? I think of the "five Cs": Camden, Chester, Cheltenham, Coatesville, and Clementon NJ. Wilmington DE is bad too. Not to mention much of Delaware County along MacDade, Chester Pike, etc is a... dump.
You've got to be kidding me.

First of all, Chester, Camden, Coatesville and Wilmington are not even remotely suburbs. They are all cities. They are all cities that were built around industries that have up and left. They are all cities that are too small to support themselves right now and unlike the various parts of NYC, do not have the benefit of being a part of Philadelphia.

I'm not even going to get into the fact that big cities like NYC have their would-be "dangerous suburbs" within their city boundaries, and even they still have "suburbs" outside of the city boundaries that have crime. It's what happens in a big city or in any city. Would you rather we quarantine places and treat the people in there like animals?

Last edited by Tone509; 01-22-2012 at 12:13 PM.. Reason: updated previously edited quote
 
Old 01-21-2012, 07:32 PM
 
Location: NYC
2,690 posts, read 2,116,001 times
Reputation: 1522
Quote:
Originally Posted by couldntthinkofaclevername View Post
LA is one of the most suburban cities in the country, if not the most suburban. Same goes for Pheonix, Dallas, Houston, etc. Have you seen the neighborhoods they screw up? They look like our suburbs with the single homes and tract housing. Screw that. I'm not giving them one bit of credit for any "clean up" in violent crime that they had no excuse to have in the first place compared to East Coast cities, especially when so many of their people are out of control well outside of those areas. LA is almost 500 square miles large. That is flat out ridiculous. If you took the same amount of square miles, Philadelphia would easily be Number 3 behind Chicago. LA has a pathetic amount of people given how large the city limits are and the way they build so many apartment buildings.

Places like LA made their own problems. They didn't have generations of poor "white" immigrants on top of the minorities (who are the only ones out there who know a damn thing about struggling) they have now. There are so many jobs out there compared to out here that it's not even funny, and their schools might have problems without a doubt but they have no excuse for that given how much money that state has. LA should've never been as violent as it was. That whole state is simply out of control. There's no order whatsoever so kids and "adults" can do whatever they want.

I give places like NYC and Chicago all the credit in the world (though at the same time, let's not forget all of the things both cities have had going for them for decades now). I will never extend that to places where there's abundant sunshine and where there are no older, rowhome or tenement-lined neighborhoods.
The "most suburban"? I dunno about that. Have you actually spent a lot of time in LA? I only ask, because I used to assume from all the stereotypes that LA was some bland sprawling suburban hellhole, until I actually spent some time out there.
The first time I was in LA, I went there FULLY prepared to hate it. But it actually changed my mind after a few trips once I got a feel for the place. It's a pretty complex city, and now I actually like it a lot. The place is gritty and has history and culture and depth and is real. And this is coming from a Philly city kid. It's not Phoenix, or Dallas, or your typical sunbelt city.

Plus, LA is big for sure, but at 8,091 people per sq mi it's actually pretty dense too. Not quite as dense as Philly, but for a comparison to an east coast city, it's denser than Baltimore (7,675 pp/sm), which noone claims is "suburban". LA is more than twice as dense and much more urban than Houston (or Dallas, or Phoenix), and it's a disservice to lump it in with them. LA is actually the 5th most dense of the 20 largest US cities (Philly is 4th).
And if you want to talk about including the area of Philly's suburbs in a comparison, it might surprise you that the LA metro area is actually almost 2.5x as dense as the Philly metro area (although I don't have a number for a 468sq/mile area superimposed over Philly for an exact comparison). LA is pretty legit is all I'm saying.

And LA has LOTS of poor and working class people who have been struggling in tough situations. The unemployment situation in LA right now is worse than Philly's, and their state is broke. LA has dealt with lots of serious problems over its history. Not sure why you say they had "no excuse" to have crime. And then you say thugs in Philly do, because they're from bad neighborhoods?
I don't think things are as diffferent as you think. Both cities have had problems with the effects of urban poverty, generations of racial tension and a host of other issues. Philadelphia and LA both had huge riots right around the same time in the mid 1960's that devastated whole areas of the city (North Philly in 1964, Watts in 1965), and those neighborhoods have never fully recovered from them in either city. And then LA had more serious rioting again in the early 90's in the same area, as insult to injury. Philly luckily did not.

And yes, I have been through some of those neighborhoods in LA. And I would point out that, aside from some superficial differences, its physically not a whole lot different from a place like Northeast Philly. And as we know, crime is currently on the rise in some Northeast Philly neighborhoods as a poorer population has been moving in. So it's clearly very possible to have drugs, violence, and serious crime in an area that consists of large swaths of low rise closely packed modest single family homes with garages when you have a population that feels disenfranchised.

And hey, crime gets worse in Philly in the summer when the weather is nice..imagine having nice weather all year round!
I'm just saying that there's no need to tear down another city with it's own real problems to make excuses for Philly. Philly just needs to handle it's problems, regardless of what's going on in other cities, and that's the truth.

Last edited by rotodome; 01-21-2012 at 09:00 PM..
 
Old 01-21-2012, 10:36 PM
 
Location: NYC
2,690 posts, read 2,116,001 times
Reputation: 1522
Quote:
Originally Posted by couldntthinkofaclevername View Post
There really isn't a single metro in the Sunbelt or West Coast that can compare to an older, East Coast one. Look at how large LA's MSA is. It covers only about 1,000 square miles less than our CSA does, and our CSA doesn't even include places that are very much a part of the area.
Almost forgot:

The Los Angeles MSA is actually only slightly larger (+4.8%) than Philly's MSA in area, but it has many more people and is much more dense.
Just since you brought it up.

Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA MSA:
population = 12,828,837
area = 4850.3 sq/mile
density = 2654.4 pp/sq mile

Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, MSA:
population = 5,826,742
area= 4,629.6 sq mile
density = 1258.6 pp/sq mile

(source: 2010 census)
 
Old 01-22-2012, 06:26 AM
 
Location: South Jersey
7,789 posts, read 9,955,820 times
Reputation: 2129
I did not realize that LA was just about the same size as Philly. I always though tit was much more spread out and larger
 
Old 01-22-2012, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Expatriate Philadelphian in Northern Virginia
7,720 posts, read 11,599,933 times
Reputation: 2205
Quote:
Originally Posted by magicoz View Post
Why are there so many ghetto suburbs of Philly but not other big cities? I think of the "five Cs": Camden, Chester, Cheltenham, Coatesville, and Clementon NJ. Wilmington DE is bad too. Not to mention much of Delaware County along MacDade, Chester Pike, etc is a ...dump.
Cheltenham? Granted, there are areas close to the Philly border - particularly around the Lynnewood Gardens apartment complex - that don't evoke thoughts of Wisteria Lane...but I find Cheltenham overall to be a solid suburb...and this is coming from a native sports rival next door (Abington).
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Old 01-22-2012, 07:17 AM
 
Location: NYC
2,690 posts, read 2,116,001 times
Reputation: 1522
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankgn87 View Post
I did not realize that LA was just about the same size as Philly. I always though tit was much more spread out and larger
That's only the MSAs that were being discussed, which are similar in area (though LA's has a much larger population).

LA city proper (468sq mi) IS much larger and more spread out than Philadelphia city proper (135sq mi). But it's not so vastly different in density as one might think based on the popular perception (8,092 pop/sqmi VS 11,457 pop/sqmi). A place like Phoenix for comparison is only 3,071 pop/sq mi.
 
Old 01-22-2012, 07:25 AM
 
Location: NYC
2,690 posts, read 2,116,001 times
Reputation: 1522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone509 View Post
Cheltenham? Granted, there are areas close to the Philly border - particularly around the Lynnewood Gardens apartment complex - that don't evoke thoughts of Wisteria Lane...but I find Cheltenham overall to be a solid suburb...and this is coming from a native sports rival next door (Abington).
I always just think of Lynnewood Gardens as the apartment complex where all the art students from Tyler lived. I wonder what it's like now that most of the Tyler facilities have been moved onto Temple main campus?
 
Old 01-22-2012, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia,PA
469 posts, read 394,141 times
Reputation: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone509 View Post
Cheltenham? Granted, there are areas close to the Philly border - particularly around the Lynnewood Gardens apartment complex - that don't evoke thoughts of Wisteria Lane...but I find Cheltenham overall to be a solid suburb...and this is coming from a native sports rival next door (Abington).
I agree with 100% about Cheltenham.I have to smile when I read some of the posts on here,when people are talking about an area that I know very well.
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