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Old 05-03-2015, 05:37 PM
 
Location: New York City
8,709 posts, read 7,971,292 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
I suspect that retailers frequently picking King of Prussia over Center City boils down to ignorance of the area & geography in general. They are aiming for money on the Main Line. They are writing off or ignorant of money in the city & South Jersey.

Since KOP went upscale I have known of people who could afford to shop in those stores who deliberately avoid them because they live in the city or South Jersey & their attitude is that those stores don't want their business because of the location. it's pretty simple. People in Haddonfield or Moorestown don't want to go to King of Prussia, but they would go to Center City.

Not trying to down South Jersey and CC, But the Pennsylvania suburbs have more money than both South Jersey and CC combined, and KoP is located by one of the busiest highway exchanges in the county. So it should be of no surprise that super luxe retailers pick KoP over anywhere else in the area.


Quote:
Originally Posted by asiandudeyo View Post
I agree with you. But also it shows that retailers think PA only need one high-end / middle class shopping destination. It translates that they feel that people in PA do not have the buying power. Either that or the proximity to Manhattan makes them think twice to open a store down in PA.
Again in Miami, they have several shopping districts with luxury retailer:
1. Design District: Louboutin, Tom Ford, Burberry, Hermes, Dior, Gucci, Rick Owens, etc.
2. Aventura Mall: Burberry, Diesel, AllSaints, Gucci, Louis Vuitton, etc.
3. Lincon Road + Collins Ave.
4. Merrick PArk.
In addition, stores that are consider "high -end" in Walnut are staples stores in regular Miami malls (Dadeland, etc). Armani Exchange is one of them.

So for example, Miami as the city herself has 3 Burberry (although only one has the Prorsum line), why the whole entire PA state has only ONE Burberry?

Anyway, I am so tired talking about this thing LOL. At the end, we commoners can only argue so much. At the end, the 1% is in charge of everything.
I actually think there is a Burberry store in a mall outside of Pittsbugh.

I know there is not the same level of retail in PA as Miami, but its not like KoP and CC are the only places for shopping. Glen Mills is becoming a shopping destination, Ardmore, will grove, the giant plan for the former Granite Run Mall (I am very anxious to see how this turns out) and the outlets in Limerick. Most of these centers are mid to upscale: J crew, banana, Anthro etc, but its still good retail.

I have done a good amount of research on retail in the area, if CC were to gain a dozen or so high end retailers and maybe a Bloomingdales, the Philly area IMO would have their fair share of retail.

Just in department stores, we have 2 Bloomingdales, 3 Nordstroms (1 flagship), 1 Neimans, 1 saks, 3 Lord and Taylors, and a dozen macys.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BPP1999 View Post
Retailers are generally very aware of where they locate. They do plenty of studies. You just like to bring up South Jersey all the time. I highly doubt high-end retailers are saying to themselves "let's locate in an area far away from South Jersey." Many of the high-end retailers in KOP also have locations in Cherry Hill, and there are some high-end retailers who locate in CH first.

Are you actually saying people in South Jersey get offended when certain retailers locate in KOP? Retail locations often come down to demographics, and the suburban area with the best access to customers with cash to burn on overpriced status crap is KOP.
Which ones? I do not know of any super high end retailers that chose CH before KoP? The fanciest stores in Cherry Hill are Hugo Boss and Nordstrom, both of which are fairly new.

J crew, Banana, White House etc are high end, but not on the level Burberry, Saint Laurent, Hermes, Neiman Marcus etc.

I do think Cherry Hill has come such a long way, but KoP will likely always be the "Philadelphia" destination if you want a $5000 handbag or pair of shoes, simply because of the money in the PA burbs, and the catchet of the KoP name.

Last edited by cpomp; 05-03-2015 at 05:48 PM..
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Old 05-03-2015, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
12,180 posts, read 6,755,039 times
Reputation: 8790
Again, the reason why the retailers locate in KofP and maybe Cherry Hill but not Center City has to do with critical mass: KofP is in the middle of more money than either of the other two locations.

I just looked up the median household income for several communities on the Main Line:

Lower Merion Township (Gladwyne, Ardmore, Bryn Mawr, Villanova, Merion Station)
Haverford Township
Upper Merion Township (King of Prussia itself, part of Wayne)
Radnor Township (includes part of Wayne)
Willistown Township (part of Paoli)
East Whiteland Township (part of Paoli)
West Whiteland Township (Exton)
Tredyffrin Township (Devon, part of Wayne)

and in South Jersey:

Moorestown Township
Haddonfield Borough
Cherry Hill Township
Evesham Township (Marlton)
Voorhees Township

plus the three ZIP codes in Philadelphia with the highest median household incomes, in descending order:

19106 (Society Hill, Old City)
19118 (Chestnut Hill)
19102 (Avenue of the Arts - Broad to 15th streets, Vine to Pine)

as well as the one that includes Rittenhouse Square:

19103 (also includes Logan Square)

Of those territories listed above, the median household income is above $90,000 in all of the Main Line communities save Upper Merion Township (which is in the upper $80s), and it's above $100,000 in Lower Merion and Radnor. I also broke out one designated place that's part of one of these townships - Devon - and got a MHI of $142k, the highest of all the communities I pulled Census data for 2010 from PolicyMap for.

In New Jersey, only Moorestown and Haddonfield cleared the $100k bar. Evesham Township (Marlton) cleared the $90k bar. Cherry Hill did not, nor did Voorhees.

The wealthiest ZIP code in Philadelphia has an MHI of $87,927. In 19103, it's in the upper $50s; a zip code in the far Northeast, 19119, has a higher MHI, though only barely.

In other words, if you are a luxury retailer, most of your likely customers live near KofP. Some of them live close to the Cherry Hill Mall. Not that many of them live near Rittenhouse Row. (Don't forget that #2 Philly zip 19118 lies at its northwestern tip, equidistant from KofP and Rittenhouse Row.)

Ergo, if you are only going to open one store, the logical place to put it is in KofP. Nowhere else. And if you want to open one more, the second one should go in Cherry Hill.
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Old 05-03-2015, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Midwest
1,283 posts, read 2,097,474 times
Reputation: 983
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
The wealthiest ZIP code in Philadelphia has an MHI of $87,927. In 19103, it's in the upper $50s; a zip code in the far Northeast, 19119, has a higher MHI, though only barely.
Correction: 19119 is Mount Airy, East and West (Johnson to Cresheim Creek, Wissahickon Creek to Stenton)
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Old 05-03-2015, 09:49 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
8,700 posts, read 13,907,736 times
Reputation: 3656
Keep in mind that there are a TON of students living in the western half of Center City with an income of very little or $0. This significantly drags down the MHI. Take out the students and I guarantee you the MHI increases by at least $20,000.

BTW, the MHI for 19103 in 2012 had risen to $61,761
19103 Zip Code - USA.com™
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Old 05-03-2015, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
12,180 posts, read 6,755,039 times
Reputation: 8790
Quote:
Originally Posted by FamousBlueRaincoat View Post
Correction: 19119 is Mount Airy, East and West (Johnson to Cresheim Creek, Wissahickon Creek to Stenton)
Oops! Thanks for the correction.

The ZIP code I wanted was 19116, at the northwest corner of the Northeast; it includes Somerton and Pine Valley, the Northeast neighborhoods with the highest household incomes. Its MHI in 2010 was just $59 short of $50,000.
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Old 05-03-2015, 11:15 PM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
6,513 posts, read 9,485,822 times
Reputation: 7467
Quote:
Originally Posted by asiandudeyo View Post
I agree with you. But also it shows that retailers think PA only need one high-end / middle class shopping destination. It translates that they feel that people in PA do not have the buying power. Either that or the proximity to Manhattan makes them think twice to open a store down in PA.
Again in Miami, they have several shopping districts with luxury retailer:
1. Design District: Louboutin, Tom Ford, Burberry, Hermes, Dior, Gucci, Rick Owens, etc.
2. Aventura Mall: Burberry, Diesel, AllSaints, Gucci, Louis Vuitton, etc.
3. Lincon Road + Collins Ave.
4. Merrick PArk.
In addition, stores that are consider "high -end" in Walnut are staples stores in regular Miami malls (Dadeland, etc). Armani Exchange is one of them.

....

the end, the 1% is in charge of everything.
I think you've basically solved your own argument. There are very few cities with a concentration of the global 1% to the extent that NYC and Miami are. Those are two cities that have a staggering amount of foreign wealth pulsing through its local economy--mostly due to being global real estate capitals (and this is highly controversial in both cities, too, for many reasons). To this end, the Philadelphia area must rely on a local market to support retail offerings, which I think is more impressive than it's given credit for.

Also, just to be clear, Pennsylvania still has 2 Burberrys: Store locator. For context, of the 23 states and the District of Columbia that have Burberrys, the vast majority only have 1.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
The wealthiest ZIP code in Philadelphia has an MHI of $87,927. In 19103, it's in the upper $50s; a zip code in the far Northeast, 19119, has a higher MHI, though only barely.
To compare, the wealthiest borough of NYC, Manhattan, only has a MHI of $66,818 (2009 data): http://www.city-data.com/income/inco...-New-York.html

As Summers noted, median household income tends to be driven down by student populations in many cities.

Average income tends to be more impressive, and although I understand this tends to be driven up by people in the very high-income range, the fact that Center City's average income hit the six-figure mark recently is definitely a sign that it's been successful at attracting more higher-income households in recent years: Center City household income now in the six figures - philly-archives.

That is something retailers will like to see.
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Old 05-04-2015, 12:10 AM
 
Location: East Central Pennsylvania/ Chicago for 6yrs.
2,539 posts, read 3,059,940 times
Reputation: 1483
Forty percent of luxury retailers concentrate their store locations in New York, Chicago, Las Vegas, Miami and San Francisco. According to JLL, and —have become the hot locations for luxury retailers to build storefronts. According to JLL's "The New World of Retail" report, these areas, followed by Dallas, Houston and Orlando, possess the attributes for better success due to population and income growth.

JLL Identifies the Top U.S. Markets for Luxury Retailers in New Report

1. New York
2. Chicago
3. Las Vegas
4. Miami
5. San Francisco

8 Best Shopping Destinations in the USA | U.S. News Travel

1. New York City
2. Chicago
3. San Francisco
4. Minneapolis/St Paul
5. Los Angeles
6. Boston
7. Houston
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Old 05-04-2015, 07:01 AM
 
Location: New York City
8,709 posts, read 7,971,292 times
Reputation: 5534
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
Again, the reason why the retailers locate in KofP and maybe Cherry Hill but not Center City has to do with critical mass: KofP is in the middle of more money than either of the other two locations.

I just looked up the median household income for several communities on the Main Line:

Lower Merion Township (Gladwyne, Ardmore, Bryn Mawr, Villanova, Merion Station)
Haverford Township
Upper Merion Township (King of Prussia itself, part of Wayne)
Radnor Township (includes part of Wayne)
Willistown Township (part of Paoli)
East Whiteland Township (part of Paoli)
West Whiteland Township (Exton)
Tredyffrin Township (Devon, part of Wayne)

and in South Jersey:

Moorestown Township
Haddonfield Borough
Cherry Hill Township
Evesham Township (Marlton)
Voorhees Township

plus the three ZIP codes in Philadelphia with the highest median household incomes, in descending order:

19106 (Society Hill, Old City)
19118 (Chestnut Hill)
19102 (Avenue of the Arts - Broad to 15th streets, Vine to Pine)

as well as the one that includes Rittenhouse Square:

19103 (also includes Logan Square)

Of those territories listed above, the median household income is above $90,000 in all of the Main Line communities save Upper Merion Township (which is in the upper $80s), and it's above $100,000 in Lower Merion and Radnor. I also broke out one designated place that's part of one of these townships - Devon - and got a MHI of $142k, the highest of all the communities I pulled Census data for 2010 from PolicyMap for.

In New Jersey, only Moorestown and Haddonfield cleared the $100k bar. Evesham Township (Marlton) cleared the $90k bar. Cherry Hill did not, nor did Voorhees.

The wealthiest ZIP code in Philadelphia has an MHI of $87,927. In 19103, it's in the upper $50s; a zip code in the far Northeast, 19119, has a higher MHI, though only barely.

In other words, if you are a luxury retailer, most of your likely customers live near KofP. Some of them live close to the Cherry Hill Mall. Not that many of them live near Rittenhouse Row. (Don't forget that #2 Philly zip 19118 lies at its northwestern tip, equidistant from KofP and Rittenhouse Row.)

Ergo, if you are only going to open one store, the logical place to put it is in KofP. Nowhere else. And if you want to open one more, the second one should go in Cherry Hill.

In addition to the Main Line you have several wealthy communities in Delaware County that use KoP as one of their main shopping destinations.
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Old 05-04-2015, 07:08 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
12,180 posts, read 6,755,039 times
Reputation: 8790
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpomp View Post
In addition to the Main Line you have several wealthy communities in Delaware County that use KoP as one of their main shopping destinations.
I think that, with the exception of Radnor and Haverford townships, their MHI doesn't cross the $90k threshold I was using as the cutoff for "fabulously wealthy," but I may be wrong about, say, Springfield Township, Swarthmore Borough or some of the communities in the Brandywine Valley.
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Old 05-04-2015, 07:22 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
12,180 posts, read 6,755,039 times
Reputation: 8790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
To compare, the wealthiest borough of NYC, Manhattan, only has a MHI of $66,818 (2009 data): http://www.city-data.com/income/inco...-New-York.html

As Summers noted, median household income tends to be driven down by student populations in many cities.
If you were to break Manhattan down by ZIP codes as I did Philadelphia, however, I strongly suspect you'd find a bunch of ZIP codes on the East Side, especially above 59th, with MHIs above $100k, and even more that clear $90k. And once again, the luxury merchants in Manhattan cluster on the Upper East Side, especially along Madison Avenue. (FWIW, Brooks Brothers' flagship store is at 346 Madison Ave.)

Quote:
Average income tends to be more impressive, and although I understand this tends to be driven up by people in the very high-income range, the fact that Center City's average income hit the six-figure mark recently is definitely a sign that it's been successful at attracting more higher-income households in recent years: Center City household income now in the six figures - philly-archives.

That is something retailers will like to see.
Agreed, and it might persuade some luxury retailers, especially those catering to a younger demographic (if such exist), to reconsider Ritttenhouse Row space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steeps View Post
Forty percent of luxury retailers concentrate their store locations in New York, Chicago, Las Vegas, Miami and San Francisco. According to JLL, and —have become the hot locations for luxury retailers to build storefronts. According to JLL's "The New World of Retail" report, these areas, followed by Dallas, Houston and Orlando, possess the attributes for better success due to population and income growth.

JLL Identifies the Top U.S. Markets for Luxury Retailers in New Report

1. New York
2. Chicago
3. Las Vegas
4. Miami
5. San Francisco

8 Best Shopping Destinations in the USA | U.S. News Travel

1. New York City
2. Chicago
3. San Francisco
4. Minneapolis/St Paul
5. Los Angeles
6. Boston
7. Houston
Readers' polls are less scientific than either of these, I'll grant, but it was interesting to note that the readers of Travel + Leisure voted Philadelphia their second favorite shopping destination in the world last year. The attractions that appealed to the editors who wrote the description most were:

The Reading Terminal Market (reinforcing our burgeoning reputation as a great food city)
North Third Street in Old City

The latter has no stores that I'd consider traditional "luxury" brands, but there are several high-end home furnishings boutiques and a bunch of clothing stores that carry lines you're not likely to find in traditional "luxury" shopping districts. Sugarcube, a purely homegrown boutique that specializes in what I'd characterize as "modern rustic" style, was mentioned by name, and I think you'd have to do a good deal of hunting in any of the cities above save New York or Chicago to find stores that carry the designers it does.
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