Philly homeowners! Anyone else worried ... (Philadelphia, Pittsburgh: 2014, condo, crime)

[GraysFerryB4]

Keep in mind that the PA suburbs pay 3 taxes...a lower property tax compared to NJ, a school tax and one more ( county tax?); either way, you pay in the end. I also feel that Philly has a sheriff for a reason, go out and "boot" the houses that don't pay back taxes just like the PPA does to cars. This thinking of, "we can't get it done so lets not try" always comes out in Philly from 4 wheel bikes on city streets to curfew to the drug trade. YOU ARE THE LAW so implement it.
I feel bad for folks like Clark; you should not have to pay "again" for all of your hard work.

[drive carephilly]

Originally Posted by frankgn87

you would be paying a lot more in the burbs.

wage. Tax.

[mancat100]

I did the AVI thingy and my taxes are calculated to nearly double. The increase will be roughly $2,500. I'm looking at that increase as my share of the scofflaw subsidy. In fact, I'd like to officially propose that we start calling these increases "The Scofflaw Subsidy". Lets get the message out there so the good citizens of Philadelphia know exactly what they're being asked to pay for.

[drive carephilly]

Originally Posted by phillies2011

That they don't care and would rather tax hardworking people more than collect it from tax skirting deadbeats. That's just silly. You can accuse the city of incompetence, but the accusation that they don't want to collect the money just doesn't make sense. Why would they not want to? How would they benefit?

Perhaps I'm guilty of buying the company line too much,

Definitely buying the line . . . and the lie.

Get in good with your councilperson and maybe your state rep and/or senator and see what you can get away with. Haven't paid your taxes in 10 years? City Legal coming after you? Make a few phone calls and it will go away. It's really that simple.

There's an empty dirt lot at the corner of 16th & Moore that's been a festering eyesore and has been blanketing the neighborhood in a coating of dust for two years now . . . there used to be a crumbling school on it. The developer leveraged $1million of the City's money by not paying the taxes on it and sitting back to let the City do the demo . . . and they never took the property.

This kind of stuff goes on every damn day.

510 million is a drop in the bucket and fixes to our real estate taxes must come regardless.

$500 million isn't a drop in the city budget bucket. It's 15% of the annual budget . . . or a 3% increase in annual revenue if you spread it out over a 5 year period.

I understand the anger that the city would have the audacity to come after tax payers before collecting from these delinquent deadbeats. But if the city did decide to only raise the property taxes AFTER they collected back taxes it would only be to assuage people's feelings and would not be based on any type of sound policy.

Except that no one is saying to do that. You can start collecting debt and and put your anticipated revenue from it into the budget in the next 5 year plan . . . and you raise taxes according to that additional revenue. You don't just jack up taxes and tell people "oh, yeah, we know about that, we'll get around to it at some point. In the meantime, give us more money."

The truth is the city should be doing both at the same time, the property tax structure in this city needs to be fixed sooner rather than later.

I agree that things need to be fixed but an over-reliance on property taxes isn't "fixing" the tax structure. Ask people from the 'burbs how well that works out. Letting scofflaws get away with paying no taxes is not a fix. Letting major corporate firms completely off the hook is not a fix. Shifting the tax burden even more to the backs of homeowners and wage earners is not a fix.

[tom_567]

For those who think that the wage taxes will just get lowered later, the NJ Gross Income tax was passed in 1976 as an "offset" for higher property taxes. Before then, NJ had NO income tax. 25 creative court cases later, and the state income tax receivables go to places like Camden in exchange for payoffs and votes, and suburban property taxes are no longer reduced by state payments.

The obvious result for those who did the right thing was high property and high income taxes (NJ). I am guessing that city council will be just as short sighted. They will raise the property tax, but the wage tax reductions will never come. You eventually will end up with less people to pay as the people with means move for places that don't have ridiculous tax burdens.

In Philadelphia, someone making $100,000 a year is paying $7000 in state and local taxes plus their property taxes. If $1800doubles to $3600, you are now on par with Collingswood, NJ at the same income bracket.

Let's hope Philadelphia chooses wisely, but I'm not holding my breath!

[frankgn87]

Originally Posted by drive carephilly

wage. Tax.

I was talking about prop tax only. But add wage to it and its more expensive then the burbs. Its gonna mean a mass exodus from the city

[RightonWalnut]

Originally Posted by frankgn87

I was talking about prop tax only. But add wage to it and its more expensive then the burbs. Its gonna mean a mass exodus from the city

No its not.

[phillies2011]

Originally Posted by drive carephilly

Definitely buying the line . . . and the lie.

Get in good with your councilperson and maybe your state rep and/or senator and see what you can get away with. Haven't paid your taxes in 10 years? City Legal coming after you? Make a few phone calls and it will go away. It's really that simple.

There's an empty dirt lot at the corner of 16th & Moore that's been a festering eyesore and has been blanketing the neighborhood in a coating of dust for two years now . . . there used to be a crumbling school on it. The developer leveraged $1million of the City's money by not paying the taxes on it and sitting back to let the City do the demo . . . and they never took the property.

This kind of stuff goes on every damn day.

Yea I don't know. I mean I don't doubt crap like that happens, in fact I know it does. But those unpaid taxes rankle so many Philadelphians, I mean imagine the good pub that would come from bringing that cash in. That's election winning stuff, if it were so easy to bring that money in I just don't understand why an ambitious councilperson wouldn't get it done as they eyed the mayor's office or a house seat.

Plus not everyone who has councilpersons in their pocket are mustache twirling villains running around not paying real estate tax. I mean the people with true political capital who run this city, aren't real estate tax scofflaws, they bend the system so they don't even have to pay taxes. Anyone who can't find a way to make their lack of tax paying legal and above board doesn't have true political capital. The people who back taxes to the city are scumbag absentee developers and people in poverty.

I mean come on, Jeffrey Lurie and Brian Roberts don't owe the city back taxes haha, they massage the system so they don't even get a bill.

I try to look at things as logically as possible. I see the incentive for not forcing people to pay their taxes and the kickbacks and benefits that could bring. But there also seem to be enormous benefits to bringing that money in. If it could be done as easily as people make it out to be it'd be done. I believe that.

Then again no one ever went broke overestimating the corruption within Philadelphia's government so it's not like I'd find it the shock of the century if you turned out to be right.

$500 million isn't a drop in the city budget bucket. It's 15% of the annual budget . . . or a 3% increase in annual revenue if you spread it out over a 5 year period.

15%? It's closer to 12.5%. Besides when I say it's a drop in the bucket I didn't really mean to say that the amount of money is meaningless. What can be collected should be. I just mean that it's not some huge amount of money that will erase the need for AVI like some people make it out to be. Whether this money is collected or not, AVI is needed. AVI is a long term plan that over the years will mean the difference of billions and billions of dollars, you can't replace by a one time collection of $510 million.

Except that no one is saying to do that. You can start collecting debt and and put your anticipated revenue from it into the budget in the next 5 year plan . . . and you raise taxes according to that additional revenue. You don't just jack up taxes and tell people "oh, yeah, we know about that, we'll get around to it at some point. In the meantime, give us more money."

Don't really think we disagree on anything here. As I've said again and again. Both need to happen.

I agree that things need to be fixed but an over-reliance on property taxes isn't "fixing" the tax structure. Ask people from the 'burbs how well that works out. Letting scofflaws get away with paying no taxes is not a fix. Letting major corporate firms completely off the hook is not a fix. Shifting the tax burden even more to the backs of homeowners and wage earners is not a fix.

Totally agree with that first line and that last line. Let's not forget I began my involvement in this thread by coming out against those who were telling people "to just shut up and pay the piper, philly's real estate taxes are too low". You can keep batting down straw men if you wish but no where in all the many things I've typed in this thread have I said that "letting scofflaws get away with paying no taxes" is my idea of a "fix". Philly needs to do a better job collecting it's taxes. Philly needs to find a balance between making Philly an attractive place to run a business and letting businesses run roughshod over taxpayers. But philly also needs to fix it's tax system. The system as is, is totally f****d.

I've looked at houses in Bella Vista that have asking prices of over 300 grand and have property taxes under 1,000. I mean come on now. That isn't right. That isn't fair. That isn't equitable. It needs to be fixed. People should be taxed on what their homes are worth, not what they worth in 1962 or whenever the hell was the last time philly "fixed" it's tax code. Now does that mean property taxes should suddenly be jacked up on people all over the city forcing them to move out? no. But we need to at least begin this process, on new purchases etc.

The system is broken. It needs to be fixed. Regardless of everything else.

[RightonWalnut]

Originally Posted by phillies2011

I've looked at houses in Bella Vista that have asking prices of over 300 grand and have property taxes under 1,000. I mean come on now. That isn't right. That isn't fair. That isn't equitable. It needs to be fixed. People should be taxed on what their homes are worth, not what they worth in 1962 or whenever the hell was the last time philly "fixed" it's tax code. [/b]

Exactly. THANK YOU. That seems to be something people can't understand.

[mancat100]

Originally Posted by Summersm343

Exactly. THANK YOU. That seems to be something people can't understand.

It's not that we don't understand. It's more like, based on past history, we don't trust the city to make these changes in a fair and equitable and efficient manner.