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Old 02-22-2013, 09:27 AM
 
Location: South Jersey
7,780 posts, read 17,827,045 times
Reputation: 2295

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Actually here is your quote. Noting in that quote about metro areas.

"Philadelphia and Pittsburgh combine to create nearly 80% of the GDP of the state of Pennsylvania while receiving less than half of the tax dollars back to improve our cities."


Quote:
Originally Posted by phillies2011 View Post
You are confusing the city's budget with the state's tax revenue. the two are not related. The city government of Philadelphia is broke. That has nothing to do with how much money the corporations and people in Philadelphia are making. The city government itself does operate in the red as you said but i'm not talking about that. What I am saying is that the city produces more state tax revenue than they receive back in state funding. Do you understand the difference? Besides if the city actually received back its fair share of funding it wouldn't be broke.

And yes the GDP of Philadelphia includes the whole metro, it would be impossible to separate them unless everyone who had a job in philly was forced to live here. that's the whole point of a metro, it signifies basically the sphere of economic dependence centered upon the main city. I never said I wasn't talking about the whole metro. That's why I said the near counties could join us in leaving PA. The near counties are not the problem. There are some people who bite the hand that feeds them (most commenters on philly.com for example) but most people living in the suburbs of philadelphia whether they like philadelphia itself or not want it to do well and prosper. They understand that if philly and it's economy and it's job market are booming then their home is worth more and entire region is affected in a positive way. Plus many of the things increased state funding to philly could do like improve the highway and public transit infrastructure in and around philly would be things that nearby suburbaners would love because it would decrease their commute times. I consider state funding for septa to be money the state puts back into philly, but obviously septa doesn't just serve the city proper, it serve the entire region.

My original point, that Philadelphia and Pittsburgh should ditch PA is obviously a joke. That's not going to happen. But please understand the root of that argument that each city would be better off because they produce much higher proportion of state revenue than receive in state funding is ABSOLUTELY TRUE.

The rest of PA freeloads of us. Not the other way around.
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:30 AM
 
Location: South Jersey
7,780 posts, read 17,827,045 times
Reputation: 2295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
And I daresay that many of them are just as if not more civilized than people who live in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.


Spoken like someone who's never been there.
Yup. I was just there (Erie) on business a few months ago and it has a BEAUTIFUL water front area that is as clean as a whistle. People who knock somewhere they have never been is just not right to do
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Bella Vista
2,472 posts, read 3,261,693 times
Reputation: 2188
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankgn87 View Post
Actually here is your quote. Noting in that quote about metro areas.

"Philadelphia and Pittsburgh combine to create nearly 80% of the GDP of the state of Pennsylvania while receiving less than half of the tax dollars back to improve our cities."
haha and ignore everything else i wrote. you are wrong frank! god, you're awful at admitting that. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in every instance of me typing that I was speaking of the entire metros but I was. As I said it is impossible to extract the GDP of Philadelphia from it's surrounding metro as money can be produced in the city in companies that are located in philly but by people who live throughout the metro. That's why when speaking of the GDP of a city it is always the region and never the city itself.

But that works both ways. As i said money that goes to septa which I consider funding going back to Philly from the state, doesn't just help Philly but the entire metro. or funding for I-95 located in Philly which is obviously in Philly but mostly used by people from the near suburbs.

Just admit you were wrong. Philly and Pittsburgh do not take more than they make. They make WAY more than they take and yet there are people like you who not only don't appreciate it but don't even realize it and think you'd be better off without the cities.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:37 AM
 
Location: South Jersey
7,780 posts, read 17,827,045 times
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Wrong? How so?? I've admitted it many times here. Have you?? You won't agree that you misquoted!

Id gladly say I was wrong.. Was I wrong to point out that you were making fun of people that live outside the city and thats wrong? Was I wrong that you misquoted about cities and metro areas? No on both these points. Thats all I was saying
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Bella Vista
2,472 posts, read 3,261,693 times
Reputation: 2188
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankgn87 View Post
Wrong? How so?? I've admitted it many times here. Have you?? You won't agree that you misquoted!

Id gladly say I was wrong.. Was I wrong to point out that you were making fun of people that live outside the city and thats wrong? Was I wrong that you misquoted about cities and metro areas? No on both these points. Thats all I was saying
misquoted? When I said Philadelphia and Pittsburgh I meant the metros and I figured that would be clear to anyone knew even the slightest bit about the GDP of cities and tax revenue. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear and you couldn't follow what i was saying. besides elsewhere within in the same post I made it clear that the nearby counties were part of Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. Clearly i wasn't claiming that Delaware County etc were a part of Philadelphia so I am obviously talking about metros. Again though I could have been clearer, so if you couldn't follow, i'm sorry.

You on the other hand don't understand the difference between the budget of the city of Philadelphia and where the tax revenue of the state of pennsylvania comes from.

as is often the case, you haven't gotten the foggiest idea of what you're speaking of and yet that doesn't stop you from opening your mouth.

you can disagree about me calling the people in the middle of this state hicks if you wish i don't really care. if you want to be the white knight defender of these yokels then go ahead. what you are wrong about and what was the basis of our entire argument and what you refuse to admit is this:

You said that Philly and Pittsburgh take more state money than they provide. That is wildly false. You are incorrect. The opposite is true.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:18 AM
 
Location: South Jersey
7,780 posts, read 17,827,045 times
Reputation: 2295
forget it.. You missed the point..
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia
1,166 posts, read 1,197,899 times
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I completely agree with phillies, but I'm going to have to completely agree with frank. Phillies, I'm on your side of the argument and I can comprehend what you're trying to put forth because I understand you, but your post was structured so that the reader had to make certain assumptions about what you were saying, and not everybody is thinking exactly along your line. If you put all the posts you made arguing with Frank, and you added all of that content into your first post, it would be clear. If anybody reads all your posts now, it would be clear, but if someone only reads your first post, it isn't going to be entirely clear and it comes off highly confrontational. I don't mind personally, but obviously others will, and you know that.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Bella Vista
2,472 posts, read 3,261,693 times
Reputation: 2188
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankgn87 View Post
forget it.. You missed the point..
what was the point? Did it somehow involve your master thesis? "cities = bad, sprawl = good".

Well instead of guessing what your point is, here's mine: Philadelphia and Pittsburgh produce more state funding than they receive. That was the point of everything I wrote.

You refuted it, and in fact implied the opposite was true. As is often the case as you were slowly bludgeoned with facts and statistics to prove you were incorrect you grasped at straws and threw everything you could at a wall to desperately see if anything at all would stick, when it didn't, you eventually gave up, never once admitting you were incorrect. It's a common play acted out with great talent by you on at least a weekly basis on this forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cnote11 View Post
I completely agree with phillies, but I'm going to have to completely agree with frank. Phillies, I'm on your side of the argument and I can comprehend what you're trying to put forth because I understand you, but your post was structured so that the reader had to make certain assumptions about what you were saying, and not everybody is thinking exactly along your line. If you put all the posts you made arguing with Frank, and you added all of that content into your first post, it would be clear. If anybody reads all your posts now, it would be clear, but if someone only reads your first post, it isn't going to be entirely clear and it comes off highly confrontational. I don't mind personally, but obviously others will, and you know that.
no, i agree. I could see how some could think I meant just the city. the point that frustrated me the most though was that wasn't even the part that matters. that's how frank works, he can't argue you on the merit of your actual argument so he pulls at secondary threads. I don't have GDP statistics for just the city of Philadelphia, I only have them for the metro. But there is no way the nearby suburbs produce so much extra tax revenue that Philadelphia itself would take in more state funding than it produces. It doesn't matter if you're talking about the metro or the city alone. Both Philly and Pittsburgh are by far the biggest economic engines in this state and produce the vast majority of this state's income and yet receive a disproportionately small amount of state funding. Whether you're speaking by city limits or by metro, it doesn't matter.

oh and I know it came of as confrontational. i can't help it. i don't mind paying taxes, but it ticks me off that such a disproportionate amount of my taxes are ending up in the middle of nowhere PA instead of coming back to my own community which not only needs the money but deserves it as well.

The fact that after suckling at our teat they then in turn hate us, show us no respect, and people like frank say we take more money than we make just makes my blood boil even more.

Obviously Philly can't secede from PA, but I really wish we could, even if just for five years, just so the rest of the people in this state could wake up and see how miserable things would be without us, whereas we wouldn't miss them one bit.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:55 PM
 
Location: Center City
6,572 posts, read 7,331,559 times
Reputation: 8655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
Spoken like someone who's never been there.
Just like I don't have to go to the North Pole to know that it's cold, I don't have to go to Lake Erie to know it's dirty:

Record levels of plastic pollution found in Lake Erie | cleveland.com
Lake Erie has most mercury pollution in Great Lakes The Chronicle-Telegram - Lorain County's leading news source
Lake Erie
Bacteria and Lake Erie beaches are fact of summer in Northeast Ohio, environment group laments | cleveland.com
Ohio beaches still second worst in country among coastline states | cleveland.com

If you like it, however, pack your swim suit and knock yourself out!
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:49 PM
 
Location: South Jersey
7,780 posts, read 17,827,045 times
Reputation: 2295
Quote:
Originally Posted by phillies2011 View Post
Obviously Philly can't secede from PA, but I really wish we could, even if just for five years, just so the rest of the people in this state could wake up and see how miserable things would be without us, whereas we wouldn't miss them one bit.

You are delusional. Its the other way around in fact. Everyone outside the cities see the cities as money sapping, crime ridden, murder capitals of the state.. Philly is in the red by billions and you think the city don't need the state to stay alive. You are truly delusional
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