Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This is where the amazing core comes in to play(Manhattan). NYC isn't all peaches and cream but the vibrancy of Manhattan and to a lesser extent a burgeoning Brooklyn seems to give it a free pass overall.
Maybe in 25-30 years Center City will be able to do the same for North Philly,SW Philly etc.. And NJ needs to to do something with Camden. That city is an albatross around the neck of Philadelphia. If you swapped Wilmngton for Camden then Phillys reputation would increase substantially.
One perception advantage that Boston has is that it has a much smaller black population than Philadelphia, and, sadly, many people view cities with large black populations more unfavorably. Chicago, Atlanta and Houston struggle with this to varying degrees as well. On the other hand, Boston, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Denver, San Francisco and Seattle don't have large black populations, and everybody loves them. I'm not sure that's a coincidence either. Speaking of San Francisco, Oakland has a large black population, and it's often considered the ugly duckling of the Bay Area. The only city with a large black population that escapes a negative "ghetto" stigma is Washington DC.
Just a note. I lived in Minneapolis for a few years. I guess it's got this reputation of being some kind of white man's land. But the city's only about 60% white (meaning less white than American as a whole, and much less white than either Minnesota or the Twin Cities Metro Area). The city's about 20% black (which includes African-Americans and a large population of 1st and 2nd generation immigrants from Africa), 10% hispanic, and 5% Asian. And a big Native American presence. It's no United Nations, but it's also Minnesota, keep in mind.
The main thing about Philly is segregation, in my opinion. There are perhaps a few blocks in North Minneapolis where you see the kind of segregation in Philly that is really in-your-face to someone who's not from here. Even a neighborhood notorious for crime and poverty like Phillips (aka "Murderpolis" ) comes in at a - compared to Philadelphia - astoundingly diverse 25% white 25% black 25% hispanic 25% other according to the 2010 Census.
The thing that I loved about Minneapolis was that I could live in a dirt-cheap inner-city neighborhood (Powderhorn, about a block away from the aforementioned Phillips) with a somewhat deserved bad reputation (the prostitutes and other illegal activity was pretty in your face at times - and I was woken up by gunshots and hoodlums on more than one occasion), but life still very much went on. There was no over-the-top kind of tension or fear between people. Lake Street, the main drag, was probably the most vibrant place I've lived thus far - going out for walks at night and stopping at the awesome authentic mexican and latin american stands, the somali markets, the bakeries, thrift stores, liquor stores, the local middle eastern grocer/restaurant, the hippie coffee shops..
Life went on. And it was a pretty amazing place to live.
Not that you can't find places resembling that in Philly. South Philly has a lot to offer and is extremely diverse - but it's also fairly expensive. To try to paint a picture - if you took 9th and Washington and put it in a blender with Broad and Lehigh, and what came out was a melting pot of all kinds of people at all different stations in life, with rents cheap enough for anyone who worked to get by, with enough opportunity that most people were working towards or for something, and with enough crime to keep all but the least annoying yuppies away, but with enough to offer that nobody was in too big of a rush to leave.
So, as an outsider, not completely familiar with the post-war history of all the different neighborhoods in Philly, I often just end up wondering why people found it so unbearable to live together. Even here in Germantown, which is fairly diverse for Philly, both racially and economically, it definitely seems like the prominent parts of the neighborhood aren't a place for everyone, but a particular subset of a subset of a subset of folks looking to turn their checks into cash and their cash into wigs. I'd love to see all the pleasant people and families I see on walks, on the bus, doing housework, having family gatherings, out on Chelten or Germantown Avenue, with life going on, and interesting locally owned businesses popping up as a result. I'd personally like to see *anyone* out on Chelten Avenue past say, 7 PM, only because it would be less creepy for those like myself who don't like playing by the "be inside by 7 PM" rule.
Anyway, when most people talk about Minneapolis being nice, they probably are talking about the sterile modernism of downtown or the growing corporate blandness of uptown. But I just thought I'd add my perspective to that, as a wanderer of the more downtrodden places of anywhere I can find.
So, as an outsider, not completely familiar with the post-war history of all the different neighborhoods in Philly, I often just end up wondering why people found it so unbearable to live together. Even here in Germantown, which is fairly diverse for Philly, both racially and economically, it definitely seems like the prominent parts of the neighborhood aren't a place for everyone, but a particular subset of a subset of a subset of folks looking to turn their checks into cash and their cash into wigs. I'd love to see all the pleasant people and families I see on walks, on the bus, doing housework, having family gatherings, out on Chelten or Germantown Avenue, with life going on, and interesting locally owned businesses popping up as a result. I'd personally like to see *anyone* out on Chelten Avenue past say, 7 PM, only because it would be less creepy for those like myself who don't like playing by the "be inside by 7 PM" rule.
Anyway, when most people talk about Minneapolis being nice, they probably are talking about the sterile modernism of downtown or the growing corporate blandness of uptown. But I just thought I'd add my perspective to that, as a wanderer of the more downtrodden places of anywhere I can find.
As someone who has roots in Philadelphia going back nearly a half dozen generations on both sides of my family, I can't even really understand it, so I can imagine it can be really hard for an outsider.
I think it really has a lot to do with Philadelphia's very homegrown population. There were a lot of people I grew up who could trace their families back over 100 years in philadelphia and most of them haven't just been in Philadelphia all that time, they've been in the same neighborhood, or even the same block, or even the same house! It just creates such a clan mentality. Combine this with a class structure that had a comparatively high standard for working class people as compared to other places in the country (for many years Philadelphia had the highest percentage of home ownership of any city in the nation), but at the same time a very small opportunity to move up out of the working class.
Once industry started to die and jobs in factories and other working class jobs began to dry up it simply destroyed the whole system. Desperate people were just looking around for someone to blame. They're not going to blame the people around them who they have lived with for generations, they're going to blame the "others." If everyone still had a job, who cares if a person of another ancestry in another neighborhood also had one? But once those jobs go away, the competition gets fierce and everyone just turns on everyone they perceive as not being on their "team."
Sprinkle on top political and police corruption with a knack for racial policy and it's like whipping up the perfect recipe for racist pie.
Growing up it seemed like every single solitary white adult I met was saying something racist to me, not realizing my ancestry. I had a black friend's grandmom forbid me to enter her house as a child because she was still mad (Nearly a half a century later!) that my grandfather had married a white person instead of one of his own. Even people I met that weren't exactly racist, they were still just so OBSESSED with race.
I think those people who were born in the 30s, 40s, and 50s will never change, they'll always be obsessed with race. But they will at least all die eventually and I think with them will die this weird obsession with race in this city. People my age were already mostly over it and it seems kids today are even more over it.
I think those people who were born in the 30s, 40s, and 50s will never change, they'll always be obsessed with race. But they will at least all die eventually and I think with them will die this weird obsession with race in this city. People my age were already mostly over it and it seems kids today are even more over it.
Yep, old habits die hard, as they say. To this end, though, and in the context of the discussion of Philadelphia's prominence in comparison to Boston, Philly is definitely not unique in this regard. Racial issues absolutely have plagued Boston (busing riots, anyone?) just as they have Philadelphia. New York, as much as it is put on a pedestal today for being a racial melting pot, is EXTREMELY segregated and certainly has not been without racial tensions throughout its history.
Basically, even powerful and cosmopolitan cities have their fair share of racism and segregation.
I think it really has a lot to do with Philadelphia's very homegrown population. There were a lot of people I grew up who could trace their families back over 100 years in philadelphia and most of them haven't just been in Philadelphia all that time, they've been in the same neighborhood, or even the same block, or even the same house! It just creates such a clan mentality.
I think this is so well put. As an outsider to Philly myself (not from Boston but one of the New England states), I found it very interesting when interacting with friends and their families that have lived in the Philly area for a while. My wife's parents grew up in the city (as did her grandparents) and 99% of their friends are people they met back in the "old neighborhood." They seemed to follow the well-trodden pattern of moving to the Northeast, then eventually moving to the Suburbs in BucksCo. They still haven't completely lost their "neighborhood" mentality as when we were looking for houses, places like Chalfont and Blue Bell were "too far" from their home near Newtown. You'd sometimes think that their niece lives in another country in Collegeville.
Granted, my perception is someone who moved a lot when they were young so of course I'm going to look at things differently. But still it always struck me as odd.
The thing with Philly is that no one wants to live near poor, black people so those neighborhoods are hyper-segregated. You can find plenty of poor neighborhoods that are 90% black.
On the other hand you can only find two neighborhoods in Philly that are 90% white.
Just to follow up on that with the some real data - The middle and upper-middle class neighborhoods are pretty well integrated insofar as the different ethnic groups are represented in those economic groups.
Even the blue-collar neighborhoods are pretty diverse. It's just the roughest neighborhoods in North and West Philly where you find that hyper-segregation - along with a few super-white census tracts along the river (Bridesburg, Port Richmond) and super-black tracts in Southwest.
South of Girard Ave. there are no census tracts that are more than 90% white and only 4 that are more than 85% white - Society Hill, Parkway, Packer Park -and those tracts have seen big growth in asians and latinos which will likely continue. There is only one census tract that is 90% black and only 2 others that are more than 80% black. Those are all right next to each other in Point Breeze and have double and triple digit growth in the number of whites, asians and latinos so it probably won't be like that in the next census.
The entire Northwest, save for one census tract in Manayunk/Rox that is 91% white is, on the whole about the same as the 'south of Girard' area.
The Northeast is mostly the same except for a few census tracts up around Bridesburg/Port Richmond that are lilly white but you can see in the numbers from the last census that's changing rapidly especially when it comes to asians and latinos.
Southwest is really just limited to a few tracts in Kinsessing that are more than 90% black. In West Philly you have to get out past 52nd St. until you find it south of Market. North of Market is a different story once you're beyond walking distance from Drexel.
Even in North Philly you have to get north of Cecil B. Moore, well beyond the Temple bubble, and mostly west of Broad St. to find all of those super-segregated tracts.
It's all connected but I don't necessarily mean the long hard road of gentrification. Complete gentrification of Philly is going to take a century or two. I'm referring more to the dynamic of Center City being able to mask the problems in poorer parts of the city in regards to national perception of Philadelphia.
Manhattan does that for NYC. Chicago's electric downtown does the same. Center City can do that but imo still has a ways to go. Once Center City gets over the threshold then you will hear a lot more outsiders praise Philadelphia as opposed to "I hear bad things about Philadlephia". A world class downtown has a lot of cachet. Center City is getting there.
Boston doesn't have the same baggage as Philly,NYC,Chi , they are viewed differently less harshly.
New York City has just as many black people as Philly and everyone loves going there
Actually NYC has way more black people than Philadelphia. Then again, NYC has more of every racial group because its a much larger city.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
