Does Clarke want neighborhoods to flourish or not? (Philadelphia: income, costs)

[FindingZen]

Originally Posted by phillies2011

That's the whole point of what I'm saying though. There really shouldn't be a part of the city that people "can't afford." There should be buildings that people can't afford, but a whole neighborhood that prices out most philadelphians? That is not a good thing. That means concentrating wealth or poverty and that leads to problems. Fairmount I always hold up as a good example of what is still a pretty socioeconomically diverse neighborhood despite extreme gentrification over the past 20 years.

In fairmount you can find 3,000 sq feet mansions directly next door to a walk up apartment building with 5 studio apartments. One person could have a budget of $500 and another person a budget of $5000 and both could end up on the very same block. Now sure, the person with more money is going to have a much larger and nicer place, but that is the way it should be. Even if the apartment is very basic and small, there are a lot of affordable options for people to live there should they choose to.

It's this type of diversity that all neighborhoods should strive to have and when the market won't naturally create these types of affordable places, then that is where we should intervene and create it.

I agree. However, would it be correct to assume that your $500 studio apt example was for simplification purposes and not meant to be real?

[FindingZen]

Originally Posted by Larry Bowa

There are PLENTY of decent/good areas working-/middle class people can buy into in Philadelphia without having to take a "leap of faith." PLENTY.

Then I must ask: why are 1 in 6 Philadelphia households, per the article we are discussing, looking for affordable housing?

[Larry Bowa]

Originally Posted by Clark Park

Yes, I agree with the concept of some degree of diversity living together in harmony in a single neighborhood. I can proudly point to my own neighborhood - Spruce Hill in University City - as an example of this. However I am skeptical of your claim. Where in Fairmount can I find a $500 a month studio apartment on the same block with a 3,000 sq feet mansion? Where? I know some friends that would love to live in a studio on such a block for $500.

What we have here in Spruce Hill are lower middle class singles and couples paying $750 - $1100/mo. for apartments near Victorian "Twin" homes that go for $395K to $650K. There are some house shares where a person gets a bedroom for $500. Essentially what we have is a mix of Lower Middle, Middle Middle, and some Upper Middle class people ... so that is our "diversity."

My criticism of Clarke's plan is it's focus to create a supply of affordable housing in just three neighborhoods ... neighborhoods that are already improving. Why not create affordable housing units - but only a few in each area - in dozens of neighborhoods throughout the city including such far flung places as Oxford Circle, Penn's Grant, Kingsessing, Cobb's Creek, Tacony, Strawberry Mansion, Germantown, East Mount Airy, West Powelton, Port Richmond, Spring Garden, Bella Vista, Walnut Hill, etc.??? This way, these lower income working folks would be more integrated and we can avoid creating more "ghettoes" (we have enough already).

Decent people don't want to live next door to people who need to be "integrated." The government thought by placing Section 8 people amongst working class people, they would be motivated to improve themselves ... how's that working out? People are what they are.

[Larry Bowa]

Originally Posted by Tone509

Then I must ask: why are 1 in 6 Philadelphia households, per the article we are discussing, looking for affordable housing?

They have bad credit and can't get loans.

[mancat100]

In a city where massive sections exist in a state of near ruin, where the school district is struggling, where the infrastructure is subpar - should this particular city be spendng precious tax payer funds on essentially preventing three neighborhoods from improving too much? In a nutshell, this is Clark's plan, and that's why it's a load of crap.

[FindingZen]

Originally Posted by Clark Park

My criticism of Clarke's plan is it's focus to create a supply of affordable housing in just three neighborhoods ... neighborhoods that are already improving. Why not create affordable housing units - but only a few in each area - in dozens of neighborhoods throughout the city including such far flung places as Oxford Circle, Penn's Grant, Kingsessing, Cobb's Creek, Tacony, Strawberry Mansion, Germantown, East Mount Airy, West Powelton, Port Richmond, Spring Garden, Bella Vista, Walnut Hill, etc.??? This way, these lower income working folks would be more integrated and we can avoid creating more "ghettoes" (we have enough already).

That's a very fair criticism as well as a good idea to resolve it.

[FindingZen]

Originally Posted by Larry Bowa

They have bad credit and can't get loans.

While that could be true in some cases, that's a fairly sweeping generalization.

[FindingZen]

Originally Posted by Larry Bowa

Decent people don't want to live next door to people who need to be "integrated." The government thought by placing Section 8 people amongst working class people, they would be motivated to improve themselves ... how's that working out? People are what they are.

There may be a difference between "Section 8" people living next to working/middle-class people compared to both working/middle-class newcomers (per Clarke's idea) and upper-middle-class newcomers (per free market gentrification) living next to long-time working/middle-class residents.

[Larry Bowa]

Originally Posted by Tone509

While that could be true in some cases, that's a fairly sweeping generalization.

"True" being the key word.

[Larry Bowa]

Originally Posted by Tone509

There may be a difference between "Section 8" people living next to working/middle-class people compared to both working/middle-class newcomers (per Clarke's idea) and upper-middle-class newcomers (per free market gentrification) living next to long-time working/middle-class residents.

Yeah.