Philly or Jersey?? (Philadelphia, Levittown, Chester: relocate, property taxes, income)

[orrmobl]

If you want value for your money I would go to Delco - Drexel Hill if you have no kids, Springfield, Havertown, Broomall if you have kids. In places like Cherry Hill and the Main Line you are paying for the neighborhood big time, not necessarily getting value for your money. And Cherry Hill and the lower Main Line border rougher sections anyway, so your are truly paying for the address, not necessarily for what it has to offer.

[MoorestownResident]

Originally Posted by ak47

Taking a job at Temple (downtown). Never lived in the region before. Priorities are schools and safe neighborhoods, as well as getting value for my money. I'm looking at areas like merion station, bala cynwyd, narberth, etc. in Philly suburbs. Seems like I could get more house for the money in a place like Cherry Hill, NJ. What are the pros/cons?
THANKS.

I realize that this is the PA/Philly forum so not surprised about the answers in this thread. A couple things to set straight though - property taxes are much higher in NJ than PA and housing varies by the area. Moorestown and Haddonfield are probably similar or a bit pricier with higher taxes than much of the Main Line though it various. The Main Line has smaller towns. Gladwyne, while great, has no Main Street to speak of, unlike Moorestown or Haddonfield. The latter have much more character as well. Other NJ areas like Medford, Voorhees, Cherry Hill and Marlton (Evesham) have excellent schools, high taxes and desirable communities. If you want private schools, Moorestown Friends is one of the best in the region, if not the country, but be prepared to cough up close to $20K per year.

[rainrock]

Originally Posted by MoorestownResident

The Main Line has smaller towns. Gladwyne, while great, has no Main Street to speak of, unlike Moorestown or Haddonfield. The latter have much more character as well. Other NJ areas like Medford, Voorhees, Cherry Hill and Marlton (Evesham) have excellent schools, high taxes and desirable communities.

I like Moorestown and Haddonfield those are great towns but wow thats a pretty bold statement saying that those 2 towns have much more character than the Mainline. The Mainline consists of 15-20 towns that stretch for 18 miles encompassing 10 or 15 of Pennsylvanias richest zip codes. I'm not convinced you have a firm grasp on the Mainline in its entirety.

But again Moorestown, Haddonfield and the prototypical suburban towns in South jersey are very nice.

[MoorestownResident]

First, love the Main Line, no arguing otherwise. And yes I have not seen every town on it or near it. BUT, you have to look at apples to apples:

Gladwyne, population 4,000 - calls itself the richest zip code in America. Well, that's nice but it's because nobody lives there. Has no Main Street to speak of.

Ardmore - a dump basically. What am I missing?

Haverford - median income is $76,000, nice but not much more than NJ's median income as a whole.

The point I'm making is - what I've seen of the Main Line is great. But you aren't going to see Main Streets that rival Moorestown or Haddonfield, you aren't going to see a $100+ million dollar estate built by ex Commerce CEO Vernon Hill in Moorestown and you don't have the same access to amenities.

Also, it is worth noting that while the Main Line has its celebrities and multi-million dollar mansions, it is a bit of an oasis since PA as a state ranks low nationally in household income while NJ is #1 or #2 in the country. There's just a different moxy to the wealthier NJ towns, sorry maybe I am bit biased but that's how I see it.

[rainrock]

The wealthier NJ towns are all in North Jersey, suburbs of NYC.The vast majority of money and people in the Philadelphia metro are in the NW suburbs of Philadelphia. The South Jersey suburbs are nice, they're ok, Moorestown probably the nicest- but you are getting carried away here. Chester County (western mainline towns) is the 19th wealthiest county in the usa. Montgomery County(eastern mainline) is 30th,Bucks County 50th. Burlington is the wealthiest South Jersey County and thats a distant 100th wealthiest county in the usa.


Moorestown does have a nice main street area as does Haddonfield. I personally dont think they are as nice as Chestnut Hill,Doylestown,West Chester or Media but thats beside the point. As far as the Mainline downtown area, they stink. The Mainliners dont want quaint downtowns that lure outsiders, they dont want people driving through their neighborhoods. They could care less about pretty downtowns, they want to be left alone in their mansions.

Villanova,Gladwyne,Penn Valley,Bryn Mawr,Wynnewood,Haverford,Rosemont,Radnor,St Davids,Berwyn,Wayne,Malvern,Newtown Township,Great Valley,Tredyffrin,East Goshen,. There is nothing remotely comparable to that sustained area of wealth in South Jersey. The nearest competitors would be the area of Newtown,Yardley,New Hope Solebury in Bucks County. Then the area from Exton,West Chester,Pocopson, Chadds Ford.

There are 24 Fortune 500 companies in Philadelphia,Montgomery,Chester,Bucks,Delaware Counties. There are 2 in South jersey(Campbells Soup) (Commerce Bank) Not trying to come down on South Jersey its up and coming but I just dont see where you are coming from with the South Jersey chest pounding.North Jersey is an entirely different story.

[MoorestownResident]

Burlington County and Bucks County are the same in terms of median household income. Burlington is also the largest county in NJ and reaches down the shore where there is some lower income populous. But it is still on par with Bucks County only with higher property taxes. NJ is also the most densely populated state.

The greater Philadelphia area reaches to Mercer County. Mercer gets Philly media and has a strong commuter base. The counties of Mercer, Burlington and Camden - primarly towns of Hopewell, Princeton, West Windsor, Lawrenceville, Pennington, down south to Moorestown, Mount Laurel, Medford/Medford Lakes, Lumberton, Shamong, Marlton/Evesham to further south to Haddonfield, Cherry Hill, Voorhees down farther south to places like Woolwich and Wash Twp. and you have some of the wealthier towns in the entire State of NJ located in the greater Philly area. It is true northern NJ counties keep the state at the top of the income nationally list but these towns are among the weathier in the entire State, not just south jersey.

South Jersey has it's own economy and a strong commuter base for Philly, central NJ and even northern NJ/NYC. There are commuter buses to NYC everyday.

Perhaps you need to learn more about the economic vibrancy of the region you live. South Jersey, unlike the PA burbs, is a strongly growing local white collar economy drawing corporate relocations every year where the PA local economy is more stagnant and blue collar. Even during difficult economic times, SJ continues to outperform the region:

Burlington, Camden and Gloucester Counties


Recent Employment Trends

Over the year from August 2006 to August 2007, total nonfarm employment in the Camden Labor Area grew by 13,400 based on not seasonally adjusted data. During the most recent year, jobholding in the area increased by 2.5 percent, faster than the state’s rate (+0.5%). The area’s gain was the result of increases in the service-providing sector (+14,000) and government (+2,800), which was partially offset by losses in the goods-producing sector (-600).[/b]

SJ has more amenities and access to NYC, the shore, etc., so no surprise it outperforms the region and is experiencing in-migration. The largest estate in the US was built 5 years ago right here in Moorestown. The local PA economies are almost entirely driven by the Philly economy except some areas in Bucks County and the Lehigh Valley that are experiencing in-migration from NJ transplants looking for cheaper housing and taxes. Philly itself is a low income city, with no job growth and declining population so it is not surprising any and all wealth moves out to the burbs in search of stronger economic growth. What you apparently don't understand is, SJ is the one of the few strongly growing regions of the northeast.

[rainrock]

Originally Posted by MoorestownResident

Your numbers are wrong. Burlington County and Bucks County are the same in terms of median household income. Burlington is the largest county in NJ in terms of geography and reaches down the shore where there is some lower...

They arent my numbers and they are not wrong.

bizjournals: How 100 counties ranked in wealth


Wealth index of the top 100 wealthiest counties in the usa.Population greater than 250,000.

19.Chester County ... 11% of households have income greater than $200,000
30.Montgomery County..... 7.7 %
55. Bucks County............. 6.5%
100.Burlington County.........3.9%

Camden and Mercer did not make the top 100. Delaware County in Pa. was # 101

Originally Posted by MoorestownResident

The bottom line, as I made my point, the monied towns in PA are great but they hold nothing over any part of NJ which has a higher cost of living and more amenities and access to NYC, the shore, etc. Of course, I love Moorestown and frankly there is probably more aggregate money and higher net worth households here than several of your small PA towns combined. The largest estate in the US in right here. Sure there might be more towns in PA but less population in many. This isn't chest pumping, this is calling a spade a spade. Philly itself is a low income city, and the poorest major city in the country, so it is not surprising any and all wealth moves out to the burbs.

You are needlessly all over the place. The affluent counties in North Jersey have absolutely nothing to do with the Philadlephia region or South Jersey. Just because Hunterdon County(#1) and Camden Counties are in the same state that doesnt give Camden County bonus points, it doesnt make Camden County wealthier than Chester,Montgomery,and Bucks counties.

The fortune 500 list should have made things crystal clear. There are 24 fortune 500 companies in Center City and the immediate Pa. burbs and only 2 in South Jersey.You can try to spin it any way you'd like but the fact is that the majority of the money in this region is in Chester,Montgomery,Bucks Counties. Delaware County would probably be ahead of Chester County if not for its urban riverfront + border along West Philly.

Honestly you are a bit misinformed and South Jersey has alot of potential but its not on the same level as the 4 Pa suburban counties. Dont confuse South Jersey with North Jersey. Dont confuse suburban Philadelphia with the rest of Pennsylvania.

Moorestown NJ population is 19,000. Median household income $78,000
Lower merion Pa. population 60,000. median household income $87,000
Birmingham Township Pa. population is 3500.Median household income $132,000.

The South Jersey shore communities didnt become rich because of Camden and Burlington Counties. They prospered mainly becasue of SE Pennsylvania.You could shake a tree in SE Pa. and 12 or 13 Moorestowns would fall out.

[BPP1999]

Agree with Rainrock. I think South Jersey is nice b/c you can be close to the city, and the shore, and it's generally more affordable, but let's not get crazy with your spin. Even saying that South Jersey has it's own economy is somewhat misleading. Last I read there's about as much office space in Montgomery County as all of South Jersey. Try looking this up in google.

I can understand you want to promo your region (it's actually refreshing to see someone from NJ saying nice things about NJ), but don't make statements that the PA suburbs of Philadelphia are stagnant and blue collar - that claim is flat out ridiculous. Eastern Delco is blue collar, and so is lower Bucks, but you need to heed your own quote: "You have a lot to learn about the economic vibrancy of the region you live."

I think your comment about SJ having more amenities is pretty far-fetched as well. If you do some research you'll find there's wealth in the Main Line and yes even in lowly Philadelphia that you have absolutely no idea about. Just because Moorestown got #1 on Money Maganize's list a couple years ago doesn't mean you can make propesterous claims.

[MoorestownResident]

Re-read my post, it was edited. Your numbers are completely wrong. Median family income in Moorestown is $95K. That is actually low because there is a lower-income older section of M-town that drives down the average.

Again Fortune 500 has nothing to do with it. Philly is going to have Fortune 500 that relocate out of the region and take jobs with it. SJ is the economic growth engine of the region.

And you are wrong about Hunterdon County, there is good commuter base to both Philly and NYC there. I didn't include it because it is not technically in the greater PHL region unlike Mercer County.

And doing a quick Wikipedia on Bucks and Burlington:

Bucks County - The median income for a household in the county was $59,727, and the median income for a family was $68,727.

Burlington County - The median income for a household in the county was $58,608, and the median income for a family was $67,481.

[BPP1999]

Originally Posted by rainrock

Dont confuse South Jersey with North Jersey. Dont confuse suburban Philadelphia with the rest of Pennsylvania.

This sums it up. It's actually funny to hear someone claim that SJ is an "economic growth engine." Sure, it's creating jobs, but's that quite a stretch to make such a claim.

SJ grows faster because it's smaller. This is the same reason that places like Nevada can boast that its population has "doubled" or whatever.