Will Upper Darby ever be nice again? (Philadelphia, Chester: neighborhood, university)

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by kyb01

You're joking, right?

It's had a kind of international flavor for ages given that there's a mini Koreatown on Terminal Sq. If acts at the Tower Theater can't draw various hipster people to live nearby nothing's going to. It's not hip. Never will be edgy and no one is going make it that way. Garrett Rd is an ugly mess. Long Lane is an ugly mess. Marshall Rd is an ugly mess.

The white hipster kids you are talking about are not going to travel through western W. Philly to get to Upper Darby. lol

I'm not joking at all, actually. I don't see any change happening overnight, but ten, twenty years down the road, who knows? There are still enough cheap in-city neighborhoods that young professional spillover into inner Delco is unnecessary at this time, but as the city continues to revitalize, people are bound to gentrify outward.

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by ElijahAstin

I'm not joking at all, actually. I don't see any change happening overnight, but ten, twenty years down the road, who knows? There are still enough cheap in-city neighborhoods that young professional spillover into inner Delco is unnecessary at this time, but as the city continues to revitalize, people are bound to gentrify outward.

The only place I can see any of what you mean is in Landsdowne which has a lot of cool houses and is almost charming with the intersection of Baltimore and Landsdowne Ave being a focal point.

But, the 69th St area? No. Further out in like Clifton Heights? No. Primos? No. Secane? No.

[Duderino]

Originally Posted by kyb01

The only place I can see any of what you mean is in Landsdowne which has a lot of cool houses and is almost charming with the intersection of Baltimore and Landsdowne Ave being a focal point.

But, the 69th St area? No. Further out in like Clifton Heights? No. Primos? No. Secane? No.

Never say never. Much like many people had written off most of Philly 20 years ago, we're seeing revitalization in places that no one would have dreamed of then.

I'd agree with Elijah that, over time, inner-suburbs like Upper Darby will likely regain the value and investment they have lost. They have much a much more walkable and transit-friendly form than post-war suburbs. That's something that many people care about now more than ever before.

Most of the Philly area is honestly "maxed-out" in terms of future housing and commercial development. Seriously--no one wants to commute on a daily basis from Reading or Allentown to the Philly area. Over time, this will undoubtedly put more growth pressure on more established suburbs for redevelopment and investment. This is especially true as proximity to Philly becomes more and more important to people. While still in the beginning stages, the city is finally re-establishing itself as a robust jobs/commercial epicenter for the entire metro area.

[sweendog024]

In order to see the potential in a place like Upper Darby you have to concentrate on what the area could potentially offer to those considering moving there. If we want to concentrate this conversation on young white "hipsters" then I think it is very reasonable to think this area very well may attract those individuals in the not too distant future. Take it for what it is worth but i am a late 20's white guy living in South Philadelphia but grew up in an area maybe 15 minutes away from 69th Street Terminal.

Key Points
- 24 hour access to all subway stations in Philadelphia (something no other suburb has)
- Lower income taxes than in Philadelphia
- Lower rent than in Philadelphia
- There is also a distinct international flavor to the area that DOES attract SOME people looking for that. Very few (If any) other suburbs of Philadelphia offer a similar international flavor.
- Lots of commercial space (right now much of it is empty or catering to a lower income demographic)

These are things that are necessary for future successful urban development. Look at Fishtown 30 years ago, look at Point Breeze today as opposed to 5 years ago, look at Passyunk avenue 20 years ago, look at main street manayunk in 35 years ago compared to what it is today.

What do all of those places have in common? relatively easy access to center city, large commercial corridors close at hand, and a distinct ethnic flavor to the neighborhood that made it unique and interesting for young people to move there. Not to mention cheap.

Having said that I am very familiar with how dangerous Upper Darby CAN be. But lets not lie to ourselves and say this is like Frankford, Kensington or Strawberry Mansion. It is, in fact, a very diverse township. This certainly comes with its benefits and its drawbacks but in the long run it could provide a great deal of upside for people with a low income, who want to live in a walkable area with a easy commute to center city, some urban vibes and a unique international flavor. Best suited for the more adventurous types.

[pman]

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the 69th st area that couldn't be fixed without enormous sums of money. The el connects to west philly (the region's fastest growing job market), 30th st station, center city, old city, northern liberties, and fishtown as well as kensington which is coming back to life. How anyone could discount that is questionable. It runs all night on weekends as well. There is good bus service to ardmore, trolley service to media, Bryn mawr, radnor (jobs).

[phillies2011]

Originally Posted by motownewave

Now just WHY do you want ME to go away? I'm sensible, unlike that user (troll?) who recently tried to assassinate the character of Swarthmore (and succeeded, it seems) when someone from California, looking to move, asked about it.

And your prediction for Upper Darby is baloney. First of all, "great transit access?" I've ridden all three forms of public transit that feed into 69th Street, and have found all of them pitiful compared to the public transit provided by Septa on the Media-Elwyn and Paoli-Thorndale lines, both of which to begin with go through much more desirable areas than what surrounds 69th Street Station for miles. Anytime I've ever ridden something to or from 69th Street, the vehicle was WAY too crowded, there were several scary people on board, there were obnoxious people playing music too loud, or cursing loudly, or being just plain obnoxious by not willing to move over to let someone have a (what might be the only) seat, or not moving even to let a person off in time. And I've ridden the trolley and sometimes the driver HAS NOT stopped for me even though I pulled the cord on time.

As for the "low rents", gee I wonder why the rents in Upper Darby are so low?

And as for the "international flavor", I personally don't feel safe walking in Terminal Square or Millbourne partly because so many of the other folks speak no English, and therefore couldn't communicate with me if I needed directions, needed emergency help (and muggings are common down there), et cetera. Besides, most of the other people on public transit to/from Upper Darby are African American, which might be really exotic to someone visiting from North Dakota, but this isn't "international flavor". And I wonder... do the impoverished immigrants who come to Upper Darby (or Philly's worst areas) realize just how much crime goes on in those areas, and realize that crime is deeply ingrained in the local culture? On top of this, Hispanic gangs (if you think of Russian thugs or the Mafia as horrific, Hispanic especially Mexican gangs are even worse) do exist in Upper Darby, and in fact a stabbing recently happened at a Honduran bar in Upper Darby. And guess what? The perpetrator was here illegally, as I'm sure a lot of other foreigners (especially Chinese) tend to be.

I used to work at the Shop N Bag in Lansdowne on the Upper Darby border, and at the Chinese restaurant across the street, the owners seemed to speak no English whatsoever except for their own item names. Literally. They clearly didn't even know "hi", "hello", "please", "thank you", etc. And I also once tried a Chinese restaurant on Garrett in Drexel Hill (that I could also walk to from Shop N Bag) where I had the same experience. I never went back.

Let me ask this: if these Chinese folks (both of the restaurants I speak of were in mostly white, English-speaking neighborhoods) spoke zero English and had no plans to learn any (at the restaurant across from the Shop N Bag, the teenage son and daughter of the owner both seemed to understand no English at all either), what can I reasonably expect to find at an ethnic business in the "urban" part of Upper Darby?

You can not like Upper Darby if you wish, but to say it doesn't have "great transit access" is TRULY ABSURD. The public transit access in Upper Darby is leagues above not only most Philadelphia Suburbs but really all of America. What percentage of cities or towns in the country have better transit access than Upper Darby? 1%? 2% at worst? No matter how you slice, the transit access in Upper Darby is elite by American standards.

I'll just ignore the racist last three paragraphs of your posts.

[motownewave]

Originally Posted by phillies2011

You can not like Upper Darby if you wish, but to say it doesn't have "great transit access" is TRULY ABSURD. The public transit access in Upper Darby is leagues above not only most Philadelphia Suburbs but really all of America. What percentage of cities or towns in the country have better transit access than Upper Darby? 1%? 2% at worst? No matter how you slice, the transit access in Upper Darby is elite by American standards.

I'll just ignore the racist last three paragraphs of your posts.

Racist, or honest and realistic?

[MB1562]

Originally Posted by motownewave

Racist, or honest and realistic?

If being in close proximity to non-whites and/or foreigners scares and bothers you so much, why don't you move to some small town in the middle of Utah or something where you never have to see them again? Seriously, if seeing black people on the subway bother you, Philadelphia is the wrong place to be.

[Cnote11]

Originally Posted by phillies2011

You can not like Upper Darby if you wish, but to say it doesn't have "great transit access" is TRULY ABSURD. The public transit access in Upper Darby is leagues above not only most Philadelphia Suburbs but really all of America. What percentage of cities or towns in the country have better transit access than Upper Darby? 1%? 2% at worst? No matter how you slice, the transit access in Upper Darby is elite by American standards.

I'll just ignore the racist last three paragraphs of your posts.

It does have great transit ACCESS but in my opinion the design of the area directly surrounding said access was incredibly BOTCHED. I'm in Upper Darby quite a bit and I think there is a lot of missed potential going on. That being said, I'll keep visiting rather than ever consider living there.

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by pman

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the 69th st area that couldn't be fixed without enormous sums of money. The el connects to west philly (the region's fastest growing job market), 30th st station, center city, old city, northern liberties, and fishtown as well as kensington which is coming back to life. How anyone could discount that is questionable. It runs all night on weekends as well. There is good bus service to ardmore, trolley service to media, Bryn mawr, radnor (jobs).

The access to the city, University City and Penn in my case, was a major reason I lived in Upper Darby for a long time. It was convenient and I could save money. I essentially slept there but spent the bulk of my time in the city.

It's just as you say: the 69th St area needs huge investment in money. For the heck of it, the 20somethings here who think it has potential, take a stroll through 69th St Terminal, cross Market St onto Long Lane and try to imagine any of it looking better. It simply doesn't have the architectural bones that's readily apparent in, say, Fishtown.

The fact that it's has been a transportation hub for decades still keeps it vital but only as a "pass through" for many, many people.