Philadelphia Neighborhoods - comparable to Hyde Park, Chicago? (Chester, Springfield: middle-class, transplants)

[GettingOutOfChi]

My husband and I are moving from Chicago at the end of August, and have been considering Philadelphia. There are plenty of negatives and positives about the city that i have both read and heard. I would like to get some honest, unbiased feedback before making the decision to even buy a plane ticket there for visiting and checking out jobs.

We are in our late 20's, want to live in an apartment, need immediate access to public transportation, shopping, and other neighborhood amenities. We are, as is everyone else, looking for a safe community.

That being said, what we are NOT looking for is some pretensious area where young people from suburbia flock to and boast about living in "the city" even though they never leave the neighborhood and everything is uber-expensive and people claim that they feel "safe" because all of their neighbors look like them - and, therefore, transplants from other states also flock here because it lacks the "diversity" of the rest of the city.

In addition, we are also not looking for a "hip" or "gentrifed/ying" community where "young professional" actually means "25-34 year old white and/or Asian with jobs 'in the city' who are still startled when they see people of color in their neighborhood, even though the majority of the city's population are people of color".

Before anyone starts ranting, I want to clarify that I am not being bitter. My husband and I are an interracial couple, and we have lived in both of these kinds of communities (Lincoln Park, Lakeview, Buena Park, Edgewater). In fact, it is these particular types of neighborhoods and people that we are trying to get away from that spurs our desire to get out of here. We prefer the neighborhood of Hyde Park in Chicago - racially diverse, lots of culture, and a lot more than just a handful of upper-class African Americans (which is important to me - I want to live around other African Americans, but that doesn't mean that I want to live in the "hood" or "ghetto"), good shopping and public transportation, and people don't clutch their purses when I walk behind them, even though we have come out of the same apartment building, are at the same bus stop and getting off at the same office downtown - which means we are probably making the same money, so what's the effing problem? Okay, maybe I am a bit bitter - but bitter about Chicago's ignorant race issues, where race determines your socioeconic class before you even open your mouth.

Can anyone give us some feeback on whether Philadelphia is or is not the place for us? Our price range is probably around $1200 although I, of course, would prefer to pay $800 (who wouldn't!). We have no children, I will likely be working downtown and he will be attending one of the universities (not sure which yet). We have no car. We would consider other areas of PA, as long as there is access to Philly by train or bus - just as long as those "other areas" are not suburbs. I was really interested in West Chester until I saw that it had no trains or buses.


Please help!
Thanks.

[leighland]

I lived in Wicker Park for 12 years. Also lived in Rogers Park. Umm, there is nothing like Hyde Park except Hyde Park. Period. Architecturally speaking, you could compare a lot of Philly to it but thats about it. Race issues seem a tad worse here than in Chicago but you might find it quite similar. I think your expectations are too high. I think you will hafta accept the gentrifiers or the hipsters or the college kids to live anywhere halfway decent in Philly. I don't live in the following areas. Here are my impressions: Mt Airy Chestnut strikes me as like Lincoln Park: Manayunk is like Edgewater: Ardmore is like Evanston. You could try University City (home of Penn and Drexel) but it may be too college age for you. There are up and coming hoods, but you said no gentrified areas. So you are really limiting yourself. You hafta to decide what you could stand the most.

[john_starks]

philly's an old city that's had to deal with population loss. the best areas now are probably with the "gentrifiers" - like me

i'm s. asian who moved from nyc here 3 yrs ago. the city vibe is slower and the neighborhoods are very different (more like one big borough). but it has its own character and you have to look to find the nuggets the city has to offer. also, i don't see much racism in the general center city area. can't speak for the more blue collar neighborhoods.

[GettingOutOfChi]

Leighland, I think you're dead on about Hyde park - I've looked everywhere in the country trying to find a place like it, and just can't! It's good to have your feedback, since you are from Chicago and you understand what it is that I'm trying to get away from. BTW - Wicker Park has changed a lot just in the past few years. It's like the new Lincoln Park, and all the "old-timers" who made Wicker park their home in the past are now in Old Town. Go figure - you can't run forever, because all the people from Michigan and the suburbs like Naperville are still going to follow you!

Anyway, you're right, my expectations may be a little too high. I don't really mind living around college kids, since my husband will be one of them, although a bit older, and I only just finished my MA. But when I compare that to the DePaul kids in LP or the UIC kids in University Village/Little Italy, I start to feel weird... so maybe not. I suppose I am willing to accept gentrified areas - but I never wanted to be a part of something like neighborhood stealing. But I think I would much rather live in a gentrified area than around hipsters. Any suggestions? And if so, can you tell me a bit about those neighborhoods?

John_starks, I think you, and leigh, are both right when it comes to gentrified areas. I have heard the same kinds of comments about Philly that you made, about Philly being like one big burrough. I totally agree with you about finding your own spot - I just don't have the luxury to do that, because we don't plan to make it a long-term home. We are basically trying to find a city where there are plenty of colleges and universities to chose from, as well as a place that has plenty of jobs, particularly in the non-profit area. Philadelphia has both, which is the only real reason it's a consideration. Once my husband finishes school, we are leaving the country.

As for the racism issue - well, I'm resigned to the fact that, no matter where you go in the States, it's going to happen, whether it is blatant or subdued. That's the main reason that I love Hyde park - because even though the city of Chicago is, itself, a giant city, it's still full of hicks, the city politics are ridiculous, the government is run by gangsters and African Americans are horribly marginalized due to city-planning and whatnot, in Hyde Park you can pretend that none of that happens - it's a very middle-class community with a large proportion of mansions and stately homes owned by people of all races, and people are actually PROUD to live there - not because of its "trend" but because it's a beautiful place to live.

Anyway, thanks to all who replied. If you can give me some ideas of some racially diverse areas, I'd be so grateful. I guess I don't mind a Starbucks on every corner.

[Tone509]

I second the recommendations for Mt. Airy and University City.

West Mt. Airy in particular is the most diverse neighborhood in the city and could be characterized as being middle-class to upper-middle class. You could take the Regional Rail train down to Center City in about 20-25 minutes. East Mt. Airy is a quiet, primarily African-American neighborhood of working-to-middle class homes.

University City is an interesting collage. You'll find people from all walks of life going to school, patronizing its ethnic (especially West African) eateries and getting fresh air in Clark Park. Once you go beyond the college rentals (east of 45th Street or so), it becomes an upper-middle class area gentrified by Penn. From 48th to 52nd Street, it segues into the rest of primarily black West Philly and its more challenging neighborhoods.

You actually may like 48th-52nd the most (between Spruce and Springfield). Those who had not been willing or able to maintain their homes have been replaced by gentrifiers (often white) who co-exist with responsible longtime residents (pretty much black).

Student-free apartments that are both nice and reasonable are hard to come by in University City. You may end up renting a floor of one of the many old, stately rowhomes. There are more affordable quality apartments in Mt. Airy.

I'm sorry to say that there is no neighborhood around Philly known for a critical mass of middle-to-upper class African-Americans. The closest might be suburban Yeadon but not only is it rather dull but it borders a less prosperous, somewhat resentful section of West Philly.

[Cato the Elder]

Originally Posted by GettingOutOfChi

As for the racism issue - well, I'm resigned to the fact that, no matter where you go in the States, it's going to happen, whether it is blatant or subdued. That's the main reason that I love Hyde park - because even though the city of Chicago is, itself, a giant city, it's still full of hicks, the city politics are ridiculous, the government is run by gangsters and African Americans are horribly marginalized due to city-planning and whatnot, in Hyde Park you can pretend that none of that happens - it's a very middle-class community with a large proportion of mansions and stately homes owned by people of all races, and people are actually PROUD to live there - not because of its "trend" but because it's a beautiful place to live.

I have lived in both Chicago and Philadelphia proper (not the suburbs). I hate to say it, but Chicago is a fine oiled machine compared to Philly. Though you don't want thugs (I'm assuming you meant white thugs) running the city, do you really want someone like John Street? Someone who proudly proclaims, "The brothers are running the city now!" and then promptly erodes almost all the gains made in the city made by the previous administration while squandering what we now know to be the financial highpoint of the decade. I believe he's consistently ranked right behind Kwame "Hip-Hop mayor" Kilpatrick as the worst mayor of the US. Things *might* change with Nutter (who's probably not "black enough" like Obama for many African-Americans because he's highly educated and doesn't speak in ebonics), but he has a tough road ahead.

In terms of racism, Philly is getting better, but it is worse than Chicago. Philly is still much more blue-collar in nature. I've had minority friends, both black and Asian, openly made fun of by younger residents of the city and nearby south Jersey - the famous Philly addytude.

Overall, I agree with previous posters - UC and Mt. Airy are probably your best bets. Many of my black friends live in the upper 40s of UC along Baltimore Ave. There are many Africans immigrants there who add diversity without bringing the bling-bang mentality. I would not live west of 52nd anymore than I would live in staunchly white, blue-collar areas in the Northeast and South Philly (think of the movie Invincible). If you want to avoid the yups, avoid Center City, the areas immediately north and south of CC, Chestnut Hill, and Manayunk. Good luck.

[billb7581]

Um... John Street is gone, no?

[orrmobl]

I've done quite a bit of thinking on your post and I've come up with a few areas that may fit the bill: Lansdowne is just outside of West Philly and is populated by locals who have been there for years with new people coming in for the great Victorian architecture. But this place may feel more like part of Chicago than most of Philly as it actually has greenspace and single homes. Very diverse, and at least 10 years away from gentrification and all the crap that comes with it.

Secondly, I'm not sure what the score is on Northern Liberties, but I love that place. It is in an area that 10-15 years ago was pretty rough. It now has cool little bars and neighborhood restaurants but hasn't lost that city edge and the people there don't seem to have their noses in the air or anything. I can see an interracial couple fitting in there quite nicely.

Lastly I've heard great things about Chestnut Hill - a guy I worked with was from an Upper Middle Class black family and grew up in Chestnut Hill. He was the nicest guy I've ever met in my life...so just on knowing him, I would give that neighborhood 2 thumbs up...

[Love Cobb]

Chestnut Hill was a lovely safe place when I lived in Mt. Airy I'd shop there. What about the area around City Line Avenue/St. Joe's Univ. area. Public transportation was readily accessible and also lots of parking (which can be a problem in Chicago).

[thesixth]

Take a look at Cheltenham Twp - just outside the northern city limits of Phila. Also agree that W. Mt. Airy & U.City are your best options in town.