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In the political and geographic sense Chestnut Hill is a part of Philadelphia. I think it would be reasonable to describe Chestnut Hill's physical attributes as suburban. Most houses have front yards and many streets don't have sidewalks. A lot of houses were built by industrialists who wanted clean air away from Philadelphia and commuted by railway thus making it a streetcar suburb.
If you want to define urban as anything within city limits and suburban as anything just outside of city limits rather than their physical attributes thats fine but it seems like defining development like that is a of product of having an "us verse them mentality" rather than looking at physical attributes. An urban environment should be walk-able and dense. Chestnut hill is neither. I have seen neighborhoods on the mainline that have more sidewalks and are just as dense like Narberth. Would you call Narberth suburban or urban.
(emphasis added)
No, Chestnut Hill is not a streetcar suburb for that reason, even though there was a streetcar line running down its main street until the 1990s.
The kind of suburb Chestnut Hill is (and Narberth, and Bryn Mawr, and Collingswood, and Haddonfield, and [fill in blank with name of area community with a central business district clustered around a railroad or rapid transit station] are) is a railroad suburb.
Prior to the widespread adoption of the automobile, this was the dominant upper- and upper-middle-class suburban form in most U.S. cities. (The workers rode the streetcars and elevated lines to places like Frankford or West Philadelphia. And most of West Philly today is definitely urban in form; only the places the railroad reached first, like Overbrook Farms, are not.)
I would also beg to differ with your characterization of Chestnut Hill as not walkable; its outer reaches aren't, but the area around the railroad termini and the adjacent streets are. You may note that the houses in this area are indeed more densely built; this was where George Woodward carried out his experiments in housing aimed at the middle class (and their domestic help). The residential neighborhoods by the railroad stations shy of the termini are also built at a more pedestrian-oriented scale.
I understood what you meant, and I think the term you are searching for is the "inner city". Which is defined as:
Do I think the inner city ghettos will ever fully gentrify? No and they haven't all the way in the cities you mentioned either. It will take a societal change for that to happen. The best we can do right now, imo, is to increase education levels and intelligence so people are more capable of intra-generational mobility.
Part of what you're up against here is a long entrenched mentality in both city and suburb (political entities) that defined them in Manichean terms: City is city and suburb is suburb and never the twain shall meet, or even cooperate, no matter what a given area may look like physically. (In this taxonomy, Chester, Norristown and Phoenixville, no matter that they are very much urban in form and industrial in character, are suburbs.)
That mentality only started to fade in the 1960s. But even those early cross-boundary efforts, including the Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Compact (SEPACT) of 1961, SEPTA's immediate predecessor, still had to negotiate the city-suburb hostility that defined the region (and IMO hindered its progress too).
Mayor Frank Rizzo chose building the Commuter Tunnel over building the Northeast subway in the early 1970s as a way to demostrate thinking regionally. The suburbs have come 'round by and large too, but you'll still find people with the attitude that nothing at all would change if a neutron bomb were to be dropped on Broad and Market streets. They're wrong, of course, but they're still out there.
... North and West Philly are back in play to a degree that a lot of people fail (or refuse) to realize. Penn has long been a driver in the revitalization of University City, but the way that Drexel and Temple are increasing in rankings will continue this trend in their respective neighborhoods. As someone who grew up in West Philly (Mill Creek) and will be living in North Philly starting on June 1st, seeing both areas transform brings me immense happiness. 52nd Street (especially south of Market) will see commercial development very soon as the boundary of what is considered "University City" approaches the corridor ...
As a resident of University City I don't have to tell anyone here that I've seen major changes to my area in the 15 years I've been here. The process is rather slow and gradual. Example when I first moved here I was told "the neighborhood is nice, but don't venture west of 46th Street." A couple of years after that it was 48th Street, then 50th, now 52nd. People walking pedigreed little dogs in Malcolm X Park and sipping lattes in sidewalk cafes overlooking the park.
Powelton Village was pretty but rather shabby 15 years ago ... lots of artists (like the Tiberinos) and Hippies (like Einhorn a bit earlier). Now it's ... expensive! Back then "West Powelton" was still 'the 'hood' ... unquestionably becoming gentrified now.
I think I may have said this to you before, but please keep me posted on your progress. You might even rate a "Who's Building Philly" profile once you really get going. And I believe you said you were African American, and I'd love to feature a few more black developers and builders in that department on "Property". (Relevant aside: I'm working on an article about Jumpstart Germantown, the program Ken Weinstein, Northwest Philly's largest developer/property manager, launched to teach youth from disadvantaged backgrounds the fundamentals of real estate development; four of the houses being rehabbed around the corner from me are being rebuilt by program graduates.)
Oh, and: The Eastern Garage project, which I mentioned above, is within the boundaries of that triangle you mention.
You are correct, I am an aspiring black developer! I will be sure to keep you updated as I get closer to attaining my degree and out into the field. Right now, my main focus (aside from graduating next May) is forming connections with those who can provide both equity and debt financing to my ventures, as well as continuing to build my brand and gain exposure here in Philadelphia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Park
As a resident of University City I don't have to tell anyone here that I've seen major changes to my area in the 15 years I've been here. The process is rather slow and gradual. Example when I first moved here I was told "the neighborhood is nice, but don't venture west of 46th Street." A couple of years after that it was 48th Street, then 50th, now 52nd. People walking pedigreed little dogs in Malcolm X Park and sipping lattes in sidewalk cafes overlooking the park.
Powelton Village was pretty but rather shabby 15 years ago ... lots of artists (like the Tiberinos) and Hippies (like Einhorn a bit earlier). Now it's ... expensive! Back then "West Powelton" was still 'the 'hood' ... unquestionably becoming gentrified now.
It doesn't happen overnight.
I remember those days pretty well. The area surrounding 46th Street was considered a no-go area when I was a little boy in the 2000s. After moving out of West Philly to Delco and attending college in the Lehigh Valley, years flew by before I would ride the El from 69th Street again. Then, around mid-2015, I finally took the ride from 69th Street. I was absolutely shocked to see nothing but hipster-looking characters throughout the entire length of the platform! I had heard about the border between UC/"typical West Philly" approaching 50th Street, but that blew my mind. 46th Street was a dump, especially before the West Philly portion of the El was reconstructed! 52nd Street, especially between Market Street and Baltimore Avenue, will undergo a complete transformation due to the changing perception of UC's border. I'm even starting to see some new construction around 60th Street station, believe it or not!
Once the next real estate cycle comes through, I'm banking on the revitalization of Belmont and East Parkside (Mantua seems like it is on that path currently). It seems like the redevelopment motion moves west along Lancaster Avenue. I partially remember Powelton Village being slightly seedy years ago; now, it is one of the most expensive neighborhoods in West Philly!
Please let us know if and when he does. He has some good points, but (like most of his stuff) he goes way overboard in his criticism. Boston's mass transit system's in great shape? Snow is a regular occurrence every winter in Boston. A much larger blizzard than the one that brought the MBTA to its knees this past winter, knocking out the entire rapid transit and commuter rail system for nearly a week, blew through in 1978 and shut things down totally for only the day after it was over. And I'm glad he didn't say a thing about the Washington Metro, for I would have laughed him out of the room if he tried calling that system in great shape.
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Sure thing. I did actually post a thoughtful response, I didn't go on a rant. I summed up his viewpoints as short-sighted, and highlighted the wonderful aspects of Philadelphia that he failed to point out, as well as his poor Boston comparison, transit comments, investment in the city, safety, the dreadful cheesesteak bit, and so on.
Over 4 pages in Word, haha. I just kept typing and didn't realize how long my response was until I was finished.
Sure thing. I did actually post a very thoughtful response, I didn't go on a rant. I summed up his viewpoints as short-sighted, and highlighted the wonderful aspects of Philadelphia that he failed to point out, as well as his poor Boston comparison, transit comments, investment in the city, safety, the dreadful cheesesteak bit, and so on.
Over 4 pages in Word, haha. I just kept typing and didn't realize how long my response was until I was finished.
You should post it where we can read. I'd love to see your response to that absolute garbage of an article.
I lived in DelCo for 4 years in college and knew my fair share of native DelCo-ians. His attitude about the city is unfortunately still all too common there.
You are correct, I am an aspiring black developer! I will be sure to keep you updated as I get closer to attaining my degree and out into the field. Right now, my main focus (aside from graduating next May) is forming connections with those who can provide both equity and debt financing to my ventures, as well as continuing to build my brand and gain exposure here in Philadelphia.
I remember those days pretty well. The area surrounding 46th Street was considered a no-go area when I was a little boy in the 2000s. After moving out of West Philly to Delco and attending college in the Lehigh Valley, years flew by before I would ride the El from 69th Street again. Then, around mid-2015, I finally took the ride from 69th Street. I was absolutely shocked to see nothing but hipster-looking characters throughout the entire length of the platform! I had heard about the border between UC/"typical West Philly" approaching 50th Street, but that blew my mind. 46th Street was a dump, especially before the West Philly portion of the El was reconstructed! 52nd Street, especially between Market Street and Baltimore Avenue, will undergo a complete transformation due to the changing perception of UC's border. I'm even starting to see some new construction around 60th Street station, believe it or not!
Once the next real estate cycle comes through, I'm banking on the revitalization of Belmont and East Parkside (Mantua seems like it is on that path currently). It seems like the redevelopment motion moves west along Lancaster Avenue. I partially remember Powelton Village being slightly seedy years ago; now, it is one of the most expensive neighborhoods in West Philly!
Some developer built a pretty massive building at the SE corner 63rd and Market. We'll see what goes in there. And I hope you are right about a revival of 52nd St. It would be so nice to see some of it return to its former self.
Over 4 pages in Word, haha. I just kept typing and didn't realize how long my response was until I was finished.
"Please forgive the length of this letter; I didn't have the time to write a shorter one."
--Samuel Johnson, in private correspondence
Quote:
Originally Posted by MB1562
You should post it where we can read. I'd love to see your response to that absolute garbage of an article.
I lived in DelCo for 4 years in college and knew my fair share of native DelCo-ians. His attitude about the city is unfortunately still all too common there.
I think I characterized this attitude somewhere else on this forum as "believing everything would be just fine and nothing would change if a neutron bomb were dropped on Broad and Market."
Sorry, Freind, but we're all in this boat together, and if we go down, you all go down with us too - metropolitan economies these days are highly intertwined.
You should post it where we can read. I'd love to see your response to that absolute garbage of an article.
I lived in DelCo for 4 years in college and knew my fair share of native DelCo-ians. His attitude about the city is unfortunately still all too common there.
Here is the email I sent Chris... no response yet, I don't really expect one, I just hope he read it.
" I am not sure what your credentials are or your education background, but I feel the need to address you personally about the very short-sighted article you've written. First, I do want to point out that I do not entirely disagree, you did make some very valid points, however, I am going to address some of your myopic viewpoints of the city. I will address your article in order of sections from the beginning.
1) Michael Nutter (while not favored by many) was one of the best mayors Philadelphia has had in recent history. Under his leadership city population grew every year reversing a half century of decline that lasted through his reelection, and through present day. When he left office, the homicide rate was down 36 percent from 2007, crime across the board decreased, the city received an upgraded bond rating A+, the highest in decades, deficit decreased, dramatic growth of educated and wealthier residents, (Philadelphia desperately needs wealthy residents, if you want it to become like your beloved Boston), he in many cases stood up to unions, increased construction and development under his leadership, I could go on and on. Those who complained about him are the people who are detrimental to Philadelphia's growth. Nutter had the big picture in front of him, old time Philadelphians and the corrupt city council feared him because he spoke out against the status quo, and viewed Philadelphia as a world class city. So its very silly for you to say he should not have been reelected challenge him as a mayor because the streets weren't plowed in time. Take a look at the current mayor and you will wish Nutter had another 4 years.
2) This is where you lost all credibility with me, you claim London is in its own league (which its not, NYC is a grander city) and you decide to take visitors from London to Genos and Pats.... the ultimate crappy cheesesteak tourist traps. Philadelphia has a blossoming culinary scene featuring some of the finest restaurants and chefs in the world and you choose Pats and Genos. Please don't say you wanted your London colleagues to experiences the "real" Philadelphia, because Pats and Genos are second class establishments, so you are in theory adding to the problem of Philadelphia being "2nd class".
3) Immediately after your Pats and Genos comment you stated how so much else of the city was disappointing. Are you seriously going to insinuate that there is nothing impressive to showcase to your colleagues from London? Off the top of my head I can think of dozens of wonderful attractions that people come to see from all over the world; The Philadelphia Museum of Art, The Barnes Foundation, Independence Hall and historic Philadelphia sites, Rodin Museum, Mutter Museum, Franklin Institute, the several wonderful performing arts venues, the culinary scene, the architecture, the parks/ recreation, the universities, etc. etc. Philadelphia of course has its problems like EVERY major city in America, however there are countless wonderful events and destinations to enjoy, which is why millions chose to live here and many millions more visit each year.
3) You mention trash, homelessness, and poverty, and that we tell people how great the city is, as if we need to convince ourselves of that... what? Reread the paragraph above and you will again see Philadelphia has not shortage of attractive attributes, and your statement makes me wonder how well travelled you are, or how familiar you are with Philadelphia and other American cities. I have visited and extensively travelled through dozens of American cities, while I do not think any one city is better or worse than another, I do think that Philadelphia is one of the most impressive cities in the nation (rightfully so), and as you stated, the city isn't even close to full potential.
Continuing on that point, have you ever been to New York City, San Francisco, Los Angeles? San Francisco is a wonderful city but has one of the highest percentages of homeless population in US, NYC and LA also have nearly severe problems with large homeless populations, not at all unique to Philadelphia. Also, none of those cities are exceptionally clean, NYC in particular is far dirtier than Philadelphia. So for you to act as if these problems are unique to Philadelphia is absolutely silly, because many large American cities are plagued with the same problems. NYC, LA, San Fran, can get away with it because they are the powerhouse cities of the US. The only point I agree with out of that section is the unfortunately high poverty rate the city is struggling with. There are many ways in which I think it can be lowered, a big start is changing the tax structure in order to attract more desirable jobs. Crime is another issue the city is struggling to get a handle on, however before I make some points, lets not pretend that other large cities are void of crime. (DC, Chicago). NYC has become the exception though, now being one of the safest cities in the country. A problem Philadelphia also has with fighting crime, is that our ghettos are more widespread and much closer to the core (Center City) than other major cities, in which those areas are very isolated and far from the central core (Chicago). However, Philadelphia is by no means a city in which someone should be fearful to visit or live in based on crime, because while the city is on the higher end of the crime spectrum, it has still vastly improved from 15+ years ago.
4) Mayor Nutter aside, I do agree that the city has been plagued with toxic leadership, whether it be democrats or republicans. The current mayor is lazy, city council is a disgrace, and Darrell Clarke, Kenyetta Johnson, and Jannie Blackwell need to be voted out immediately. They have such a backward, racist view of the city, they only want to protect their own interests, and they do not want wealthy residents moving in because it will harm their interests. So yes, I am with you on that.
5) The tax structure is another point I mainly agree with you on. However, the city is often times trapped between a rock and a hard place when it comes to lowering or repairing taxes. For example, the Greater Chamber of Commerce for Greater Philadelphia coming out against a bill to facilitate higher taxes on commercial property and ensuing decreases in wage tax shows their lack of support in improved the city. This is the suburban counties attempting to keep Philadelphia down, because everyone knows if Philadelphia can repair its tax structure, businesses would begin to flock (many of which would abandon the suburbs). So while yes, City Council, and the state are politically backwards and incredibly slow at accomplishing anything, your beloved suburbs also play a part in the mess too.
6) Now time to address your poor comparison to Boston. First and foremost, while both cities have some similar characteristics, they are completely different animals. Philadelphia was an industrial city, Boston was a financial city. Philadelphia was essentially the industrial capital of the world (maybe 2nd to London) for over 100 years, then in the mid-twentieth century American industry began to collapse. Every city suffered, however, Philadelphia fell much harder than NYC and Boston and was/ is much slower at picking up the pieces. So while its fine to compare certain aspects, its quite rudimentary to say "Boston does this, why can't Philadelphia?" Because Boston is a much smaller city that has had a much different history...
Next, I don't know where you got the idea that Boston is better at preserving open space. The largest urban park in the world is located in Philadelphia, and you know the Philadelphia region has the nickname "Garden capital of America" I would say one of the features that both Boston and Philadelphia share is their determination to preserve the history, character, architecture, aesthetics, and open space of their individual regions. Take a trip to Atlanta or Houston and then come back you will be thankful Philadelphia doesn't and hopefully will never look like those cities. Also, Septa provides a very extensive network of bus, trolley, subway, and regional rail service for the entire region, plus 24-hour subway service on weekends, only a few American cities can say they have that option. Boston public transit is good, but not better than Septa under any circumstances. Have you visited other American cities or rode some of the embarrassing public transit networks in the country? Philadelphia is blessed to have an extensive regional rail network that connects the suburbs so well, something most American cities will never see.
Furthermore, Philadelphia has always had big plans (improving the waterfront, capping highways, growing while maintain its character, etc.) however it has historically been hard to implement those changes due to lack of funding, whether it be from the state or private enterprises. Fast forward to 2017 and Philadelphia is very different. Private funding, investment, and donations coming left and right to help finance the capping of I-95 by the Delaware River, the continued expansion of the Schuylkill River Trail, the notable improvements to both river fronts, the repair and restoration of many city parks and recreational areas, The Benjamin Franklin Parkway, etc.. You act as if the city takes no pride in its public and recreational spaces, when in reality, Philadelphians have more access to parks and recreation than the majority of Americans in other major cities. (Side note, while the Schuylkill Trail has had a few incidents with crime, it is hardly plagued by crime and violence...dramatic much). And if you think Philadelphia hasn't done "squat" with each river, you clearly have not visited in a long time, the Delaware River waterfront has begun to transform itself into a summer oasis with multiple beer gardens and the wildly popular Spruce St Harbor Park, and the Schuylkill River has become a mecca for recreation and relaxing events in the sun.
6) As far as downtown ballparks, I am still up in the air on that one, because in many instances the construction of a ballpark would have meant the demolition of already broken neighborhoods, like Chinatown which has been through enough with the construction of the Vine Street Expressway 30 years ago. The only area in town where I think a ballpark would have worked would be the Penn playing fields near 30th St Station. It would have provided wonderful views of the skyline, enlivened the rather dead stretch of Walnut St, (which has since seen the construction of the FMC Tower), and provided a safe means of transportation for fans since the train station is only 2 blocks ways.
I am guessing you have never been to the Navy Yard either, because you said its an unused area... when in reality the Navy Yard is home to some of the most eclectic companies and interesting modern architecture in Philadelphia, take a trip down there and see for yourself. Also, Septa is currently in the planning phases of extending the Broad St Line to the Navy Yard, it may take a decade before we see construction, but the plan is in the works.
To sum it up, I don't completely disagree with your analysis, however I think it is very short sighted, a little bitter, and definitely shows a lack of research on your part. Philadelphia is leaps and bounds ahead of where it has been over the past 50+ years and I think the city is on the right track. Of course the city isn't at its full potential and a lot work still needs to be done, but Philadelphia is hardly second class, and you writing an article calling it 2nd class when its not, doesn't help either. Try being positive for a change.
Feel free to respond, I would love to hear your thoughts and reactions to my post. "
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