What’s the story with Camden? (Trenton, Haddon Heights: home, neighborhood, elementary school)

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by eliza61nyc

but it turned out to be a very positive thing and even the city residents are noticeable happier with the new policing system. they've instituted the old fashion "beat cop" and the out reach community policing program has been extraordinarily positive.
They've also been trying to recruit camden residents but again you hit that wall of so many generations of poorly educated and disenfranchised residents. Hard to hire locals when 1/2 of them have dropped out of h.s.

Now my experience is more grassroots because I have absolutely no faith in any politician on the planet. lol

Camden City can not become successful until they can reinstate a Camden City police department.

Most of the municipalities in Camden County refused to participate in the alleged county police force. That includes, but is not limited to Lawnside. I graduated from high school in 1969. While I was in high school black families were leaving Camden City. At that time, there were still 2 white neighborhoods. Puerto Ricans took over Cramer Hill. When they can afford to get out, they bail.

I can't begin to tell you all of the schemes that have been tried, that have, subsequently failed, including tearing down a small neighborhood, that wasn't as decrepit as some others & building a prison, which was later closed down & moved to a rural area.

Mayor after mayor after mayor went to prison for corruption. They were, white, they were black, they were Puerto Rican. Camden City has been equal opportunity for corruption.

[eliza61nyc]

Originally Posted by southbound_295

Camden City can not become successful until they can reinstate a Camden City police department.

Most of the municipalities in Camden County refused to participate in the alleged county police force. That includes, but is not limited to Lawnside. I graduated from high school in 1969. While I was in high school black families were leaving Camden City. At that time, there were still 2 white neighborhoods. Puerto Ricans took over Cramer Hill. When they can afford to get out, they bail.

I can't begin to tell you all of the schemes that have been tried, that have, subsequently failed, including tearing down a small neighborhood, that wasn't as decrepit as some others & building a prison, which was later closed down & moved to a rural area.

Mayor after mayor after mayor went to prison for corruption. They were, white, they were black, they were Puerto Rican. Camden City has been equal opportunity for corruption.

So this is a question of what came first the chicken or the egg.

Our organization believes that "policing" rarely rarely makes a neighborhood better. come on, think about it Philadelphia has the 4th largest police force in the nation, if size was all it took, north philly should be as safe as Fairmont.

thinking more cops are going to bring back a neighborhood is akin to thinking having more buckets is going to solve a leaky roof.

Crime is the RESULT of a community going down hill. You could literally put a cop on every single street corner and what would that do? would unemployment go down? nope so criminals will still find a way to steal. Will high school dropout rates go down? nope. Will the % of people living in poverty go down??? how about 2nd, 3rd generation of single moms on public assistance. these are social ills that cause crime.

You are absolutely right about the corruption. That's why I said the issue has to be community driven AND not politically or government driven.

So what exactly is having more police going to do? we no longer have beat cops so the nanosecond the cop car drives around the corner whatever illegal activity that paused for the two minutes the cops were there commences.

Now I grew up in Harlem so I don't have the history on who moved in and out of camden so you may be right. Harlem went through a horrible, horrible period when the crack epidemic hit in the early 80's Unlike the touchy, lovefest that opiod abusers are now treated to, blacks were painted as crack hoes and drug dealers. there were no billboards telling them to get help. policing did nothing to solve the situation. oh it did end up with mass incarceration over non violent crimes and a 3 strike rule that has people serving life sentences for having an ounce of crack on them. So with a huge police force sweeping through the community like the nazis and the community still spiraled out of control.

It revived itself when 1) we got substance abuse programs. 2) we got community led trade school programs 3) we got quality charter schools and started seeing graduation rates rising and lastly massive massive faith based outreach programs in the schools.

You could lock up every low life criminal right now in Camden, without some thing to combat the other issues by Wednesday someone else will have taken their place.

Just my opinion. YMMV

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by eliza61nyc

So this is a question of what came first the chicken or the egg.

Our organization believes that "policing" rarely rarely makes a neighborhood better. come on, think about it Philadelphia has the 4th largest police force in the nation, if size was all it took, north philly should be as safe as Fairmont.

thinking more cops are going to bring back a neighborhood is akin to thinking having more buckets is going to solve a leaky roof.

Crime is the RESULT of a community going down hill. You could literally put a cop on every single street corner and what would that do? would unemployment go down? nope so criminals will still find a way to steal. Will high school dropout rates go down? nope. Will the % of people living in poverty go down??? how about 2nd, 3rd generation of single moms on public assistance. these are social ills that cause crime.

You are absolutely right about the corruption. That's why I said the issue has to be community driven AND not politically or government driven.

So what exactly is having more police going to do? we no longer have beat cops so the nanosecond the cop car drives around the corner whatever illegal activity that paused for the two minutes the cops were there commences.

Now I grew up in Harlem so I don't have the history on who moved in and out of camden so you may be right. Harlem went through a horrible, horrible period when the crack epidemic hit in the early 80's Unlike the touchy, lovefest that opiod abusers are now treated to, blacks were painted as crack hoes and drug dealers. there were no billboards telling them to get help. policing did nothing to solve the situation. oh it did end up with mass incarceration over non violent crimes and a 3 strike rule that has people serving life sentences for having an ounce of crack on them. So with a huge police force sweeping through the community like the nazis and the community still spiraled out of control.

It revived itself when 1) we got substance abuse programs. 2) we got community led trade school programs 3) we got quality charter schools and started seeing graduation rates rising and lastly massive massive faith based outreach programs in the schools.

You could lock up every low life criminal right now in Camden, without some thing to combat the other issues by Wednesday someone else will have taken their place.

Just my opinion. YMMV

I doubt that you believe that the current set up with police can be permanent. The towns involved were strongarmed into participating & the other towns just said no. As I said there has been scheme after scheme for decades. It's like the boy who cried wolf or chicken little. Eventually no one believes it & just ignores it.

For decades, first the county, then the state has taken from the other towns to give to Camden. They paid Subaru to leave Cherry Hill. That takes money from Cherry HIll's tax base, so everyone in Cherry Hill is paying for that.

In the 60s, the feds came in & demanded that kids from the surrounding towns be bussed into Camden & the kids from Camden be bussed to the surrounding towns. That threat went on for a couple of years until the local lawyers impressed it on the feds that they had no legal right to demand that because each town was a separate district with different taxation rates. For years, since the Abbott Districts were established, the people in the other towns haven't gotten the tax money that the state constitution says that they are to get, so that districts, including Camden, get as much money as the highest rates of investment by the richest towns in the state. How's that working out? I heard that Phil Murphy wants to pull the plug on that. It's a proven failure.

I don't care which town in Camden County you go to, people are done with Camden. The towns that were strongarmed into the alleged county police force scheme aren't going to put up with it forever. It's not a permanent solution. You may think it's great, but ask the people in the towns that were strongarmed into it. They're helping to foot the bill, as they have for years, before it was official.

[eliza61nyc]

I live in Philly so i actually have no horse in this race.
Don't know why you think I thought it was "great" unless you totally have not read my replies. I am the one whos been saying the police are not what's going to have long term solutions.

Now whether or not the other townships are tired of Camden or not is moot. Totally. Camden is NOT going any where. Period. So the surrounding areas will either deal with them getting better or they will continue to be a drain on them. And building a wall around them ain't going to happen.

I can also believe there is corruption. Lol i live in the land of corruption. Again if u read my responses you would have seen i said as much

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by eliza61nyc

I live in Philly so i actually have no horse in this race.
Don't know why you think I thought it was "great" unless you totally have not read my replies. I am the one whos been saying the police are not what's going to have long term solutions.

Now whether or not the other townships are tired of Camden or not is moot. Totally. Camden is NOT going any where. Period. So the surrounding areas will either deal with them getting better or they will continue to be a drain on them. And building a wall around them ain't going to happen.

I can also believe there is corruption. Lol i live in the land of corruption. Again if u read my responses you would have seen i said as much

I read your posts. You said that the current police situation is fine. It's not, & I explained why. You lived in South Jersey. You should be aware of most of what I posted, either first hand or from conversations with your former neighbors. It shouldn't come as a surprise that the other municipalities are fed up, & that includes Lawnside.

I give you that you might not have heard about the bussing order. It happened when I was in high school. That hung over my head. And while that was going on, Philadelphia was under bussing orders, because the feds didn't understand that the students in Philadelphia travelled on public transit, & parents of all races didn't want little kids being bussed all over hell's half-acre.

The other municipalities in Camden County are madeup of townships & boroughs. You should know all of this unless you lived in either Burlington or Gloucester counties. Even if that was the case, you should know most of what I said, either first hand, or from conversations with your previous neighbors. You should have also heard elderly people tell about what a wonderful place Camden City was. They would give vivid descriptions.

[eliza61nyc]

ok, so I'll go back to the original posters question which was whether or not Camden was getting better.

I lived in Gloucester township (camden County) for 25 years.

1) Violent crimes were down almost 38% in 2017. the lowest in decades. I would say that is at least progress. The residents of Camden say there is better relationships with the police thanks in part to the new police department and a new community policing policy. Now I do not know if the other townships are mad or if they were forced to participate. but in reference to the original question, the residents like the new CC police force.

2) all that being said, any type of policing, County, city, state will not cure the ills of Camden. those are societal.
Poverty, jobs, education and blight. as I said before you can slap a cop from whatever department you want on every single corner but until you deal with that, all the policing in the world ain't gonna help. like I said, it's the equivalent to getting more buckets for your leaking roof.

3) Sorry there was bussing, but the fact is it happened. Really not sure how harping on some thing that happen 20, 30, 50 years ago is relevant or going to effect change. Same with hearing about the wonderful place Camden use to be. The reality is right now in 2018 it is not a wonderful place so what do we do about it? there are grassroots organizations like cure4camden that are making a difference.

this is just my opinion form being in Camden with my church's youth outreach program. I do not live there so I'm reading it as on outsider.

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by eliza61nyc

ok, so I'll go back to the original posters question which was whether or not Camden was getting better.

I lived in Gloucester township (camden County) for 25 years.

1) Violent crimes were down almost 38% in 2017. the lowest in decades. I would say that is at least progress. The residents of Camden say there is better relationships with the police thanks in part to the new police department and a new community policing policy. Now I do not know if the other townships are mad or if they were forced to participate. but in reference to the original question, the residents like the new CC police force.

2) all that being said, any type of policing, County, city, state will not cure the ills of Camden. those are societal.
Poverty, jobs, education and blight. as I said before you can slap a cop from whatever department you want on every single corner but until you deal with that, all the policing in the world ain't gonna help. like I said, it's the equivalent to getting more buckets for your leaking roof.

3) Sorry there was bussing, but the fact is it happened. Really not sure how harping on some thing that happen 20, 30, 50 years ago is relevant or going to effect change. Same with hearing about the wonderful place Camden use to be. The reality is right now in 2018 it is not a wonderful place so what do we do about it? there are grassroots organizations like cure4camden that are making a difference.

this is just my opinion form being in Camden with my church's youth outreach program. I do not live there so I'm reading it as on outsider.

Good grief, I said that there were bussing orders on both sides of the river. The feds were so incompetent that it never happened. You haven't read what I wrote, apparently. It's part of the history of the area. It's the reason why the municipalities are still separate school districts. No one ever explained that to you in 25 years?

[eliza61nyc]

Originally Posted by southbound_295

Good grief, I said that there were bussing orders on both sides of the river. The feds were so incompetent that it never happened. You haven't read what I wrote, apparently. It's part of the history of the area. It's the reason why the municipalities are still separate school districts. No one ever explained that to you in 25 years?

Sure. I am just not hung up on some thing that happened 25, 30 years ago.

Ok You are absolutely correct they forced some district kids to be bussed to school districts in 1980. It was stupid. A dismal failure. Congratulations on knowing that history.

Now exactly how will that information in any way shape or form be relevant to a kid in a Camden elementary school starting in September of 2018 or has any relevance to camdens progress in 2019??

I'll bow out since I'm missing your point

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by eliza61nyc

ok, so I'll go back to the original posters question which was whether or not Camden was getting better.

I lived in Gloucester township (camden County) for 25 years.

1) Violent crimes were down almost 38% in 2017. the lowest in decades. I would say that is at least progress. The residents of Camden say there is better relationships with the police thanks in part to the new police department and a new community policing policy. Now I do not know if the other townships are mad or if they were forced to participate. but in reference to the original question, the residents like the new CC police force.

2) all that being said, any type of policing, County, city, state will not cure the ills of Camden. those are societal.
Poverty, jobs, education and blight. as I said before you can slap a cop from whatever department you want on every single corner but until you deal with that, all the policing in the world ain't gonna help. like I said, it's the equivalent to getting more buckets for your leaking roof.

3) Sorry there was bussing, but the fact is it happened. Really not sure how harping on some thing that happen 20, 30, 50 years ago is relevant or going to effect change. Same with hearing about the wonderful place Camden use to be. The reality is right now in 2018 it is not a wonderful place so what do we do about it? there are grassroots organizations like cure4camden that are making a difference.

this is just my opinion form being in Camden with my church's youth outreach program. I do not live there so I'm reading it as on outsider.

Camden City had no money for a policeforce. The state came up with the "county policeforce" scheme. Yet another scheme. Most municipalities said no thanks, no way. The communities who, begrudgingly, agreed were already sending officers into Camden because they didn't have enough officers, in Camden. That's Camden, the regional capital of chop shops. If Camden is to come back & have any reasonable success as a community, they'll have to eventually rebuild a police force.

The state has poured obscene amounts of money into the Abbott districts. Camden is one of them. They have proven to be colossal failures.

There's a neighborhood near downtown Camden that is successful. It's a black neighborhood. No one has tried to go in there, work with people & properties & enlarge that island of success. The Puerto Ricans in Cramer Hill work at being the best they can, & when they have success, they leave for surrounding towns. It's always been hit & miss. Where you have people doing the right things, if you work with them & enlarge the little area of success, you have a bigger area of success. Eventually, there could potentially be elementary schools with successful students. Instead, everything is random. Random people & random places.

[Pine to Vine]

Interesting article in today’s Inquirer on new businesses taking hold in Camden to capitalize on jobs moving to the city: Lunch spots boom as big business brings employees to Camden - Philly.