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Old 06-19-2018, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
3,661 posts, read 1,770,490 times
Reputation: 2200

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Logistically, extending the Ridge Spur southward would be a costly and complex task now.

The easiest way to do it would be to re-establish the track connections that were severed when the Bridge Line subway (Locust/8th/Camden) was handed over to the Delaware River Port Authority for use as the in-city route for its new rapid transit line.

But BSL and Lindenwold Line trains use different signaling systems now. And I wouldn't recommend reinstalling wayside block signals on the latter. Instead, the entire BSL would need to adopt cab signaling and ATC compatible with PATCO's. That would add to the cost of reconnecting on top of what you'd have to spend to rebuild the track connections and totally reconfigure the 8th/Locust curve into a bi-level turnout (to avoid an at-grade crossing) or perhaps a full wye junction.

As for SEPTA not caring, don't forget that in the city, it's not necessarily the agent of infrastructure change. The City of Philadelphia still owns the Broad Street Subway and would also own any additions or extensions to it. (The city, not SEPTA, also built the Commuter Tunnel and owns that too.) It did conduct a study in 1993 on building the most-needed transit line in the city, the BSS Northeast Spur (Roosevelt Boulevard subway). There was wide support for actually building it this time, in contrast to years past, but no one has $4 billion just lying around to build it.

I agree that expanding coverage to areas that don't have it now is more important than extending lines in the heart of the city.

And the reason the trolley lines work is that they end not at a terminal station but rather in a loop that sends them right back out again. All the laying over takes place at the outlying loops.

Yes, there's still a good bit of NIMBY opposition to the KoP NHSL spur - triggered by SEPTA's original ill-thought-out routing for the spur, which did take it literally through people's backyards - but the forces in faov of it IMO are strong enough to push the thing through anyway.
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Old 06-20-2018, 07:40 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
262 posts, read 116,492 times
Reputation: 227
To get a bigger picture perspective, I just read this infuriating article on the Koch brothers and how they are using their money to influence legislation to favor their oil and car reliant conglomerate:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/c...c-transit.html
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:03 AM
 
8,201 posts, read 4,401,014 times
Reputation: 2692
Quote:
Originally Posted by BK_PHL_DEL View Post
To get a bigger picture perspective, I just read this infuriating article on the Koch brothers and how they are using their money to influence legislation to favor their oil and car reliant conglomerate:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/c...c-transit.html
They "nuance" this stuff by giving tons of money to the NY Natural History Museum and the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Sigh.
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Old 06-20-2018, 08:21 PM
 
3,053 posts, read 995,278 times
Reputation: 1245
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
A PATCO extention to University would greatly benefit not only Jersey commuters but Philly residents as well. You don't think Philly residents would take advantage of having a 24-hr subway line from University city to Center City?

Don't forget that PATCO also plans on reopening Franklin Square station that will add another station to Center City in several years.

That station being open works for the summer season but not when it's cold outside.
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,385 posts, read 9,950,866 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moneymkt View Post
That station being open works for the summer season but not when it's cold outside.
Some PATCO commuters work near Franklin Square station but they can't get off until they arrive at 8th and Market station so Franklin Square station works well year round.
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:15 PM
 
3,053 posts, read 995,278 times
Reputation: 1245
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
Some PATCO commuters work near Franklin Square station but they can't get off until they arrive at 8th and Market station so Franklin Square station works well year round.
I'm sure that was the case in 1979 so I wonder why they closed it?
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:20 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,385 posts, read 9,950,866 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moneymkt View Post
I'm sure that was the case in 1979 so I wonder why they closed it?
It was because of low ridership but the area around Franklin Square has change dramatically since 1979.
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:36 PM
 
3,053 posts, read 995,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
It was because of low ridership but the area around Franklin Square has change dramatically since 1979.

So when the station was open once you came outside you were in Franklin Square Park? I don't think I noticed it last summer.
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Old 06-21-2018, 06:54 AM
 
Location: In the heights
20,127 posts, read 21,737,714 times
Reputation: 10216
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
Understand that PATCO stands for port authority transportation company. NJ doesn't feel a need to spend one cent more than they have to in South Jersey. They spent nothing at all until Red Arrow quit running busses to South Jersey. If you think that they like Philadelphia better, plan away.
I definitely understand that. It's run by a bi-state agency with multiple stakeholders on both sides of the Delaware. New Jersey can certainly be uninterested in extending it within Philadelphia (even if it can benefit their riders), but even without cajoling New Jersey to pitch in additional funds, it's probably still in Philadelphians best interest if the line were extended within Philadelphia/PA so that it could serve as a third rapid transit line for Philadelphians. As it is now, the portion in Philadelphia is quite short and more or less doubly a route that already exists for many Philadelphians. It seems underutilized for Philadelphians to have this mass transit line rumbling through it partially paid by Philadelphians, but with limited use within the city.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy215267 View Post
PATCO would be the only viable extension. It's been brought up numerous times of the line going to 30th St. I would actually like the idea. I think alot of reason for PATCO not even entertaining it would be the price tag. To dig up the city streets and everything that goes with it. They will have a better chance at possibly extended it into Glassboro like they have studied to do.

*NJT cannot have another terminal stop. Once they are in the terminating state they cannot have another stop or something to that nature if i am not mistaken...anyone care to research that ?

*Trolleys serve their purpose...they already have a nice mileage on their lines.
*Broad-Ridge Spur---I doubt this line could be extended any further and i just do not see it.
Right, infrastructure expansions can be expensive. The good thing with something like PATCO is that much of the costliest build up for the densest areas are already existent with the current stations so extensions would be into less densely built parts of the city. I think one good route would be for PATCO to be extended west from where it is to 21st or 22nd street with maybe a stop on Locust and 22nd and then to head north with a transfer to the trolley at 22nd and Market, another at 22n and Pennsylvania, and then the tracks head up Pennsylvania possibly using the existing rail there before turning north on 29th street with a stop on Girard, and extending up for a bit. Not sure about stops to put for that last stretch or for how long to stretch it. It might make sense to stretch the rail out longer until there's a place to put in a rail yard as a tunnel boring machine isn't quite that expensive once you start running one, but building out stations could be. I'm not so keen on PATCO going west to connect to University City directly because this east-west route for University City and Center City is really well-served with Regional Rail, the trolleys, and the Market Street line and there are transfers to these for PATCO. I think easier transfers and better unified fare system totally makes sense.

Not sure about NJT's general policy, but there's definitely a NJT Train line that has multiple stops in New York State. That might be the exception rather than the rule. If it is a rule though, I think it's counter-productive and part of improving infrastructure is to eliminate things like that. For NYC, the balkanized commuter rail system with three different agencies needs to be forcibly consolidated if it's ever to fix the massive issues it's going through. It'll be tough, but it's pretty much necessary at this point.

Trolleys are useful and it's nice they use a loop to go back, but I think it *might* be a missed opportunity since the trolleys with their combined frequency and grade-separated operations in Center City basically offer a chance at rapid transit somewhere if it was extended. I don't know how feasible this is, but I thought it might be interesting to look into it going to the waterfront and then extending north on it possibly to form a loop with the Girard Avenue trolley, but possibly not with every single trolley line running it. Maybe there are sensible options, but I'd like to hear from people what they think could work.

I'm not sure about how an extension of Broad-Ridge Spur could do or how it would operate either. Still, it'd be interesting to hear from anyone who has an idea.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 06-21-2018 at 07:02 AM..
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Old 06-21-2018, 07:29 AM
 
691 posts, read 518,424 times
Reputation: 729
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
I definitely understand that. It's run by a bi-state agency with multiple stakeholders on both sides of the Delaware. New Jersey can certainly be uninterested in extending it within Philadelphia (even if it can benefit their riders), but even without cajoling New Jersey to pitch in additional funds, it's probably still in Philadelphians best interest if the line were extended within Philadelphia/PA so that it could serve as a third rapid transit line for Philadelphians. As it is now, the portion in Philadelphia is quite short and more or less doubly a route that already exists for many Philadelphians. It seems underutilized for Philadelphians to have this mass transit line rumbling through it partially paid by Philadelphians, but with limited use within the city.



Right, infrastructure expansions can be expensive. The good thing with something like PATCO is that much of the costliest build up for the densest areas are already existent with the current stations so extensions would be into less densely built parts of the city. I think one good route would be for PATCO to be extended west from where it is to 21st or 22nd street with maybe a stop on Locust and 22nd and then to head north with a transfer to the trolley at 22nd and Market, another at 22n and Pennsylvania, and then the tracks head up Pennsylvania possibly using the existing rail there before turning north on 29th street with a stop on Girard, and extending up for a bit. Not sure about stops to put for that last stretch or for how long to stretch it. It might make sense to stretch the rail out longer until there's a place to put in a rail yard as a tunnel boring machine isn't quite that expensive once you start running one, but building out stations could be. I'm not so keen on PATCO going west to connect to University City directly because this east-west route for University City and Center City is really well-served with Regional Rail, the trolleys, and the Market Street line and there are transfers to these for PATCO. I think easier transfers and better unified fare system totally makes sense.

Not sure about NJT's general policy, but there's definitely a NJT Train line that has multiple stops in New York State. That might be the exception rather than the rule. If it is a rule though, I think it's counter-productive and part of improving infrastructure is to eliminate things like that. For NYC, the balkanized commuter rail system with three different agencies needs to be forcibly consolidated if it's ever to fix the massive issues it's going through. It'll be tough, but it's pretty much necessary at this point.

Trolleys are useful and it's nice they use a loop to go back, but I think it *might* be a missed opportunity since the trolleys with their combined frequency and grade-separated operations in Center City basically offer a chance at rapid transit somewhere if it was extended. I don't know how feasible this is, but I thought it might be interesting to look into it going to the waterfront and then extending north on it possibly to form a loop with the Girard Avenue trolley, but possibly not with every single trolley line running it. Maybe there are sensible options, but I'd like to hear from people what they think could work.

I'm not sure about how an extension of Broad-Ridge Spur could do or how it would operate either. Still, it'd be interesting to hear from anyone who has an idea.
I donít know the exact rule, but the line you must be referring to is the Pascack Valley Line, which has 3 stops in Rockland County, NY (Spring Valley, Nanuet, Pearl River). If this rule is true, I do not think this line violates it because this lineís terminal is not in NY at Penn Station, but rather in Hoboken, NJ.

https://goo.gl/images/EFQPl7

Anyway, as this map makes perfectly clear, the state of NJ has no interest in expanding rail in South Jersey. Hell, NJ Transit doesnít even call out on the map the PATCO transfer at Lindenwold, even though they call out the PATH transfers at Newark Penn and Hoboken. And at this point anyway, South Jersey is losing population, so that would look really bad. The AC Line is practically dead.
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