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Old 06-21-2018, 07:55 AM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
20,498 posts, read 25,698,442 times
Reputation: 8146

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
I definitely understand that. It's run by a bi-state agency with multiple stakeholders on both sides of the Delaware. New Jersey can certainly be uninterested in extending it within Philadelphia (even if it can benefit their riders), but even without cajoling New Jersey to pitch in additional funds, it's probably still in Philadelphians best interest if the line were extended within Philadelphia/PA so that it could serve as a third rapid transit line for Philadelphians. As it is now, the portion in Philadelphia is quite short and more or less doubly a route that already exists for many Philadelphians. It seems underutilized for Philadelphians to have this mass transit line rumbling through it partially paid by Philadelphians, but with limited use within the city.



Right, infrastructure expansions can be expensive. The good thing with something like PATCO is that much of the costliest build up for the densest areas are already existent with the current stations so extensions would be into less densely built parts of the city. I think one good route would be for PATCO to be extended west from where it is to 21st or 22nd street with maybe a stop on Locust and 22nd and then to head north with a transfer to the trolley at 22nd and Market, another at 22n and Pennsylvania, and then the tracks head up Pennsylvania possibly using the existing rail there before turning north on 29th street with a stop on Girard, and extending up for a bit. Not sure about stops to put for that last stretch or for how long to stretch it. It might make sense to stretch the rail out longer until there's a place to put in a rail yard as a tunnel boring machine isn't quite that expensive once you start running one, but building out stations could be. I'm not so keen on PATCO going west to connect to University City directly because this east-west route for University City and Center City is really well-served with Regional Rail, the trolleys, and the Market Street line and there are transfers to these for PATCO. I think easier transfers and better unified fare system totally makes sense.

Not sure about NJT's general policy, but there's definitely a NJT Train line that has multiple stops in New York State. That might be the exception rather than the rule. If it is a rule though, I think it's counter-productive and part of improving infrastructure is to eliminate things like that. For NYC, the balkanized commuter rail system with three different agencies needs to be forcibly consolidated if it's ever to fix the massive issues it's going through. It'll be tough, but it's pretty much necessary at this point.

Trolleys are useful and it's nice they use a loop to go back, but I think it *might* be a missed opportunity since the trolleys with their combined frequency and grade-separated operations in Center City basically offer a chance at rapid transit somewhere if it was extended. I don't know how feasible this is, but I thought it might be interesting to look into it going to the waterfront and then extending north on it possibly to form a loop with the Girard Avenue trolley, but possibly not with every single trolley line running it. Maybe there are sensible options, but I'd like to hear from people what they think could work.

I'm not sure about how an extension of Broad-Ridge Spur could do or how it would operate either. Still, it'd be interesting to hear from anyone who has an idea.
I can't think of a reason that SEPTA couldn't build north south lines to connect with PATCO. You are failing to understand that NJ has failed South Jersey for generations. They aren't going to approve one penny for your plans. I rode the Red Arrow bus into Philadelphia pre PATCO. The state took our taxes to build public transportation in North Jersey. Pennsylvania-based Red Arrow provided bus service in South Jersey.

After PATCO opened in 1969 & was immediately successful, & federal money was still available to expand it, PATCO went to the state legislature with plans for a spur to Moorestown & a spur to Glassboro. Both were turned down & the tax money continued to go to North Jersey public transit. The state got caught with their pants down when Red Arrow folded. They had to provide bus service in South Jersey. That is one of many reasons that the southern counties tried to secede in 1980.
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Old 06-21-2018, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
3,658 posts, read 1,768,811 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post

I'm not sure about how an extension of Broad-Ridge Spur could do or how it would operate either. Still, it'd be interesting to hear from anyone who has an idea.
Didn't either you or Sammy215267 read my post above? I mentioned the physical track connection that existed prior to 1969. If you're headed eastbound on a PATCO train, look to your left as the train begins to turn right to enter Franklin Square station - you will see Chinatown BRS station just off what used to be a turnout. The track to the left of the one you're on used to connect to the southbound Ridge Avenue track.

Ridge trains operated in the Locust Street subway from its opening in 1952 until it was handed over to PATCO in 1969. Extending the spur to the south along 8th Street would require a costly reconfiguration of the tunnel at 8th and Locust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leps12 View Post
I donít know the exact rule, but the line you must be referring to is the Pascack Valley Line, which has 3 stops in Rockland County, NY (Spring Valley, Nanuet, Pearl River). If this rule is true, I do not think this line violates it because this lineís terminal is not in NY at Penn Station, but rather in Hoboken, NJ.

Anyway, as this map makes perfectly clear, the state of NJ has no interest in expanding rail in South Jersey. Hell, NJ Transit doesnít even call out on the map the PATCO transfer at Lindenwold, even though they call out the PATH transfers at Newark Penn and Hoboken. And at this point anyway, South Jersey is losing population, so that would look really bad. The AC Line is practically dead.
You missed the Port Jervis line, which New Jersey Transit operates in New York State under an agreement with the Metropolitan Transportation Authority of the State of New York. (This is just about identical to the agreement SEPTA has with the Delaware Transit Corporation to operate the Wilmington/Newark Regional Rail line across northern New Castle County.)

Hadn't noticed the abesence of the PATCO connection on that NJT map. But since when was South Jersey losing population? (Or at least Burlington, Camden and Gloucester counties?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
I can't think of a reason that SEPTA couldn't build north south lines to connect with PATCO. You are failing to understand that NJ has failed South Jersey for generations. They aren't going to approve one penny for your plans. I rode the Red Arrow bus into Philadelphia pre PATCO. The state took our taxes to build public transportation in North Jersey. Pennsylvania-based Red Arrow provided bus service in South Jersey.
On my first visit to this area in 1971, I noticed Public Service bus stop signs along the secondary roads leading from Mount Holly into Burlington and Philadelphia, and I even saw Public Service buses running along those roads. Unless I'm very much mistaken, Public Service Co-ordinated Transport (which I believe was at one time a subsidiary of Public Service Electric and Gas, the state's dominant utility) operated transit service statewide. It didn't cover Southern New Jersey as densely as it did the northern part of the state, but South Jersey also suburbanized a few decades after North Jersey did.

Public Service DID operate the streetcar network in Camden, which was supposed to use the tracks inside of the trusses on the Ben Franklin Bridge to operate into Philadelphia. (There are trolley stations in the anchorages; you can see the stairs leading down to them if you look towards the bridge deck while your PATCO train passes through the anchorages.) The trolleys never crossed the bridge, though, and Public Service shut the trolley system down in 1932 and replaced it with buses. The tracks were removed and converted to lanes for auto traffic.
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Old 06-21-2018, 11:23 AM
 
691 posts, read 517,777 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
You missed the Port Jervis line, which New Jersey Transit operates in New York State under an agreement with the Metropolitan Transportation Authority of the State of New York. (This is just about identical to the agreement SEPTA has with the Delaware Transit Corporation to operate the Wilmington/Newark Regional Rail line across northern New Castle County.)

Hadn't noticed the abesence of the PATCO connection on that NJT map. But since when was South Jersey losing population? (Or at least Burlington, Camden and Gloucester counties?)
I purposely did not mention the Port Jervis Line because it isnít an NJ Transit Line. Itís Metro North, but they contract out the operations to NJ Transit. The Port Jervis Line continues along either the Main Line or the Bergen County Line, which are NJ Transit lines proper, and there is only one station along those lines in NY (Suffern).

South Jersey has been losing population since the Recession, the Tri-County area included. There was recently an article highlighting overall population change patterns in the Philadelphia MSA. Itís also easy to see. Abandoned, empty, and decaying stores, strip malls, office parks, and houses are not hard to find at all, both in the Tri-County area and beyond in South Jersey.

Census data show Chester County's hot, South Jersey's not. Here's how towns are changing - Philly
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Old 06-21-2018, 01:25 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
20,498 posts, read 25,698,442 times
Reputation: 8146
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
Didn't either you or Sammy215267 read my post above? I mentioned the physical track connection that existed prior to 1969. If you're headed eastbound on a PATCO train, look to your left as the train begins to turn right to enter Franklin Square station - you will see Chinatown BRS station just off what used to be a turnout. The track to the left of the one you're on used to connect to the southbound Ridge Avenue track.

Ridge trains operated in the Locust Street subway from its opening in 1952 until it was handed over to PATCO in 1969. Extending the spur to the south along 8th Street would require a costly reconfiguration of the tunnel at 8th and Locust.



You missed the Port Jervis line, which New Jersey Transit operates in New York State under an agreement with the Metropolitan Transportation Authority of the State of New York. (This is just about identical to the agreement SEPTA has with the Delaware Transit Corporation to operate the Wilmington/Newark Regional Rail line across northern New Castle County.)

Hadn't noticed the abesence of the PATCO connection on that NJT map. But since when was South Jersey losing population? (Or at least Burlington, Camden and Gloucester counties?)



On my first visit to this area in 1971, I noticed Public Service bus stop signs along the secondary roads leading from Mount Holly into Burlington and Philadelphia, and I even saw Public Service buses running along those roads. Unless I'm very much mistaken, Public Service Co-ordinated Transport (which I believe was at one time a subsidiary of Public Service Electric and Gas, the state's dominant utility) operated transit service statewide. It didn't cover Southern New Jersey as densely as it did the northern part of the state, but South Jersey also suburbanized a few decades after North Jersey did.

Public Service DID operate the streetcar network in Camden, which was supposed to use the tracks inside of the trusses on the Ben Franklin Bridge to operate into Philadelphia. (There are trolley stations in the anchorages; you can see the stairs leading down to them if you look towards the bridge deck while your PATCO train passes through the anchorages.) The trolleys never crossed the bridge, though, and Public Service shut the trolley system down in 1932 and replaced it with buses. The tracks were removed and converted to lanes for auto traffic.
In Camden County we only had Red Arrow. They ran routes that went into Philadelphia. TNJ, the predecessor of NJ Transit, did not operate in South Jersey. Everyone my age in South Jersey, who I've talked with over the years remembers Red Arrow. The state run bus company, which was Transport of NJ, did not run in South Jersey until Red Arrow folded. There was no announcement about bus service for South Jersey until people raised a stink.
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Old 06-21-2018, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Montco PA
2,023 posts, read 4,002,847 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyb01 View Post

To be fair are you considering how much money has gone into changing the fare system?

Or the massive project of rebuilding MFL/BSL 15th St/City Hall subway complex which will at least add several more elevators?

There have been smallish capital projects like installing elevators at the Race/Vine BSl station and 40th St MFL station.
Some of these projects are long overdue, for sure, but I am convinced that if SEPTA was given $500 million and told it must be used on the regional rail system, for example, theyíd gold-plate 25 stations just so they wouldnít have to try to restore service.

I wonder if any of our state and local politicians have ever even spoken to their countyís SEPTA board member, or if they even know who their countyís board member is.
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Old 06-22-2018, 01:52 AM
 
Location: Philly, PA
333 posts, read 227,526 times
Reputation: 128
Sorry I'm late to respond....but to answer the question of the Broad-Ridge spur , I have always noticed that you can see the track for the PATCO as you turn from Chinatown approaching 8th St...that would be a snazzy idea...but i think someone mentioned the different signals and cost ?

NJT/MNRR - Yes the Pasack Valley and Port Jervis Lines do operate into New York under contract via Metro-North Railroad.

PATCO- Someone mentioned that it wouldn't benefit anyone to extend to 30th St.....The ridership would be there. Students, Employees in the area....and it would also be alternate into 30th St.....imagine something happening in the Market St Tunnel btw 30th-19th sts and there is a big shutdown or something....PATCO could be the alternate route to 15th / Locust... no big deal. And im sure many people would rather have the one seat ride to Philly from Jersey vice versa....and the benefit that PATCO runs 24/7 all the time not just the weekends like the EL, BSL. If that was to happen that would be completely how the PATH is in Manhattan at 34th St a few blocks away from Penn Station, which i have taken PATH from Newark into Manhattan due to a issue on NJT. It helps to have options and greater coverage on both ends of the PATCO line.
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Old 06-22-2018, 08:51 AM
 
Location: In the heights
20,113 posts, read 21,729,745 times
Reputation: 10216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leps12 View Post
I donít know the exact rule, but the line you must be referring to is the Pascack Valley Line, which has 3 stops in Rockland County, NY (Spring Valley, Nanuet, Pearl River). If this rule is true, I do not think this line violates it because this lineís terminal is not in NY at Penn Station, but rather in Hoboken, NJ.

https://goo.gl/images/EFQPl7

Anyway, as this map makes perfectly clear, the state of NJ has no interest in expanding rail in South Jersey. Hell, NJ Transit doesnít even call out on the map the PATCO transfer at Lindenwold, even though they call out the PATH transfers at Newark Penn and Hoboken. And at this point anyway, South Jersey is losing population, so that would look really bad. The AC Line is practically dead.
I see--I think even if the rule is true, it's still a better idea to repeal something that arbitrarily limits the efficiency of transit in the metropolitan area. My thoughts on that in regards to Philadelphia is the same in regards to NYC or elsewhere in the US. Given that transit works as a system and that they are funded by the public, making arbitrary organizational restrictions is a poor use of infrastructure and funding.

Out of curiosity, is there a place for the AC Line to short turn in New Jersey rather than run the full route? Perhaps one that is meant to run for commuters would make sense as then there could be an infill station at North Philadelphia (near Temple, its medical complex, transfers to rapid transit or regional rail to other parts of Philadelphia)? I'm also curious as to how the north-south oriented lower platform which Amtrak and the AC Line connect to the rest of the system south of 30th Street Station. Is it much work to connect to the regional rail airport line?
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Old 06-22-2018, 09:03 AM
 
Location: In the heights
20,113 posts, read 21,729,745 times
Reputation: 10216
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
I can't think of a reason that SEPTA couldn't build north south lines to connect with PATCO. You are failing to understand that NJ has failed South Jersey for generations. They aren't going to approve one penny for your plans. I rode the Red Arrow bus into Philadelphia pre PATCO. The state took our taxes to build public transportation in North Jersey. Pennsylvania-based Red Arrow provided bus service in South Jersey.

After PATCO opened in 1969 & was immediately successful, & federal money was still available to expand it, PATCO went to the state legislature with plans for a spur to Moorestown & a spur to Glassboro. Both were turned down & the tax money continued to go to North Jersey public transit. The state got caught with their pants down when Red Arrow folded. They had to provide bus service in South Jersey. That is one of many reasons that the southern counties tried to secede in 1980.
That's interesting--what's the north south lines connecting to PATCO that you're thinking of?

I'm not sure what I wrote shows that I'm failing to understand NJ has failed South Jersey for generations. I responded previously by saying

"I definitely understand that. It's run by a bi-state agency with multiple stakeholders on both sides of the Delaware. New Jersey can certainly be uninterested in extending it within Philadelphia (even if it can benefit their riders), but even without cajoling New Jersey to pitch in additional funds, it's probably still in Philadelphians best interest if the line were extended within Philadelphia/PA so that it could serve as a third rapid transit line for Philadelphians. As it is now, the portion in Philadelphia is quite short and more or less doubly a route that already exists for many Philadelphians. It seems underutilized for Philadelphians to have this mass transit line rumbling through it partially paid by Philadelphians, but with limited use within the city."

I think that's pretty explicit in saying that I believe New Jersey is unlikely to pitch in funding for an expansion of the line. Not to say that I think they shouldn't--just that an extension within Philadelphia will likely drive NJ politicians to say that they won't pay for it because they don't see a direct extension within New Jersey itself. It's also not to say that I think it's a bad idea for Pennsylvania / Philadelphia to be the one to pitch in the money, because the extension I was stating means making PATCO more useful for Philadelphians since having a heavy rail transit line already with stations and infrastructure within the city will still greatly benefit the city. It also can benefit South Jersey even if their state and municipal government decides not to chip in since that extension gives a one-seat ride to other parts of Philadelphia's Center City including Fitler Square, Logan Square and the various cultural institutions in and Fairmont Park.

As an aside, what's the neighborhood that the 22nd Street Trolley stop serves? Anyone know? It doesn't seem like it's Fitler Square, Logan Square or Rittenhouse Square.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 06-22-2018 at 09:16 AM..
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Old 06-22-2018, 09:11 AM
 
Location: In the heights
20,113 posts, read 21,729,745 times
Reputation: 10216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy215267 View Post
Sorry I'm late to respond....but to answer the question of the Broad-Ridge spur , I have always noticed that you can see the track for the PATCO as you turn from Chinatown approaching 8th St...that would be a snazzy idea...but i think someone mentioned the different signals and cost ?

NJT/MNRR - Yes the Pasack Valley and Port Jervis Lines do operate into New York under contract via Metro-North Railroad.

PATCO- Someone mentioned that it wouldn't benefit anyone to extend to 30th St.....The ridership would be there. Students, Employees in the area....and it would also be alternate into 30th St.....imagine something happening in the Market St Tunnel btw 30th-19th sts and there is a big shutdown or something....PATCO could be the alternate route to 15th / Locust... no big deal. And im sure many people would rather have the one seat ride to Philly from Jersey vice versa....and the benefit that PATCO runs 24/7 all the time not just the weekends like the EL, BSL. If that was to happen that would be completely how the PATH is in Manhattan at 34th St a few blocks away from Penn Station, which i have taken PATH from Newark into Manhattan due to a issue on NJT. It helps to have options and greater coverage on both ends of the PATCO line.
In regards to PATCO going to 30th St, my issue is that there are already so many other lines that serve that station and all these lines have preceding connections to PATCO. I think unified fare structure and making the transfers more economical and physically easier to do are a good idea, but it's sort of an inefficient route to put money into given those ample connections and it seems like PATCO's current terminus is a reasonable place to extend a rapid transit line to serve all the cultural institutions Philadelphia (and the region as a whole) has clustered in Logan Square and along and near the parkway as well as neighborhoods with pretty bright prospects like Fairmount and Brewerytown. Also seems nice that there's some existing trackage/right-of-way that can be used along Pennsylvania Avenue. As for 24 hour service, that's pretty nice, but that's also something that can be done on the other lines, most notably MFL, if there's enough demand which they did do for Friday and Saturday.
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Old 06-22-2018, 10:11 AM
 
168 posts, read 62,134 times
Reputation: 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
In regards to PATCO going to 30th St, my issue is that there are already so many other lines that serve that station and all these lines have preceding connections to PATCO.
Agreed. Considering that you have a direct connection to the El at 8th Street, which gets you to 30th Street in 4 stops (5 minutes), it seems like a waste of limited (or nonexistent) resources.

But if I was going to tunnel from 18th Street, I would head south on 19th Street and take some burden off the 17 bus, which runs articulated buses on sub-5 minute headways during rush. Even if this extension only went to Washington Ave, it would provide heavy rail one-seat rides to Rittenhouse, Wash West, and Market East, not to mention destinations in NJ.

(It would be the hospital line, providing access to jobs and treatment at Penn Ritt, Pennsylvania Hospital, Jefferson, Cooper, and Lourdes).
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