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Old 06-22-2018, 11:17 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
21,144 posts, read 26,357,592 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy215267 View Post
Sorry I'm late to respond....but to answer the question of the Broad-Ridge spur , I have always noticed that you can see the track for the PATCO as you turn from Chinatown approaching 8th St...that would be a snazzy idea...but i think someone mentioned the different signals and cost ?

NJT/MNRR - Yes the Pasack Valley and Port Jervis Lines do operate into New York under contract via Metro-North Railroad.

PATCO- Someone mentioned that it wouldn't benefit anyone to extend to 30th St.....The ridership would be there. Students, Employees in the area....and it would also be alternate into 30th St.....imagine something happening in the Market St Tunnel btw 30th-19th sts and there is a big shutdown or something....PATCO could be the alternate route to 15th / Locust... no big deal. And im sure many people would rather have the one seat ride to Philly from Jersey vice versa....and the benefit that PATCO runs 24/7 all the time not just the weekends like the EL, BSL. If that was to happen that would be completely how the PATH is in Manhattan at 34th St a few blocks away from Penn Station, which i have taken PATH from Newark into Manhattan due to a issue on NJT. It helps to have options and greater coverage on both ends of the PATCO line.
I think that the creatures from hell in Trenton understand what kind of an uproar there would be if they approved extending the line in Philadelphia when the people in Moorestown & Gloucester County haven't gotten an extension since it was first brought up in the 70s. The last time that people in South Jersey got mad enough there was an attempt to secede & form another state.
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Old 06-23-2018, 01:10 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
4,103 posts, read 1,994,759 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
I think that the creatures from hell in Trenton understand what kind of an uproar there would be if they approved extending the line in Philadelphia when the people in Moorestown & Gloucester County haven't gotten an extension since it was first brought up in the 70s. The last time that people in South Jersey got mad enough there was an attempt to secede & form another state.
Ah, yes, PATCO Corridors A, B and C, as first proposed in a report Parsons Brinckerhoff prepared in 1955, shortly after the Delaware River Joint Commission (nee Delaware River Bridge Joint Commission in 1917) had morphed into the Delaware River Port Authority in 1952, once the decision was made to build a second Delaware River Bridge.

(Of course, the great irony here is that the Delaware River Port Authority has never had authority over any actual port facilities, in contrast to its more powerful counterpart at the other end of New Jersey. An attempt to have it actually run the (maritime) ports of Philadelphia and Camden in the 1990s was stillborn after neither side of the Delaware proved willing to actually turn over its port terminals to the DRPA's umbrella organization.)

I think the letters were assigned from north to south, and it was Corridor B that was identified as having the highest ridership potential and built first.

They've been haggling over what form Corridor C would take for a couple of decades now, and at least that question's been settled: it will be light rail along the lines of the River Line, which wasn't on anybody's wish list of transit improvements for South Jersey but rather a pure political sop in exchange for South Jersey members of the legislature voting for the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail line up north. But God only knows when - or whether - actual construction will begin on the Glassboro-Camden Line.

Seems to me that Corridor A (Moorestown) is pretty much dead.

Anyone notice that major infrastructure projects take a while to become reality around here, if they ever do?
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Old 06-23-2018, 07:15 AM
 
Location: In the heights
20,919 posts, read 22,503,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
I think that the creatures from hell in Trenton understand what kind of an uproar there would be if they approved extending the line in Philadelphia when the people in Moorestown & Gloucester County haven't gotten an extension since it was first brought up in the 70s. The last time that people in South Jersey got mad enough there was an attempt to secede & form another state.
What are the best extensions of PATCO within South Jersey?
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Old 06-23-2018, 07:59 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
4,103 posts, read 1,994,759 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
What are the best extensions of PATCO within South Jersey?
See her post and my reply to it, immediately above yours.

The three corridors parallel three of the principal highways that fan out from Camden into the suburbs: NJ Route 38 to Moorestown and Mount Holly (Corridor A), the White Horse Pike (US 30) (Corridor B, the existing PATCO Lindenwold Line), and NJ 47 (the Delsea Drive to Cape May) / 55 (to Vineland) (Corridor C, which would serve Woodbury, the Gloucester County seat).

The reason nobody's talking about PATCO extensions is the same reason no one's talking about building the Roosevelt Boulevard subway on the other side of the Delaware: Full-blown heavy rail rapid transit costs more to build than any other mode of surface transport, including freeways. The carrying capacity of a two-track rapid transit line is higher than that of a six-lane freeway at standard vehicle occupancies, but our (sub)urban environments are by and large not built to support rail transit on the New Jersey side.

PATCO Corridor B got built first because there was that string of walkable communities that either were or could be "railroad suburbs" located along its route: Collingswood, Haddon Township, Haddonfield. Contrast those communities with Cherry Hill, Camden County's most populous township (and maybe municipality, depending on how many people are left in Camden), or Medford, or even Lindenwold, where Corridor B ends. Moorestown cries out for a train station, but between it and Camden are few other communities that are rail-ready or rail-friendly - you'd have to rip up the zoning ordinances and probably level a neighborhood or two to make way for "transit-oriented development" in Cherry Hill or Pennsauken.

Corridor C has more of these communities along it than Corridor A does: Woodbury, Pitman, Glassboro itself. So there is some logic behind the fitful progress towards building a light rail line connecting them.

One other South Jersey community that would clean up with rail service but will never get it is Merchantville.
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Old 06-23-2018, 09:21 AM
 
Location: In the heights
20,919 posts, read 22,503,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
See her post and my reply to it, immediately above yours.

The three corridors parallel three of the principal highways that fan out from Camden into the suburbs: NJ Route 38 to Moorestown and Mount Holly (Corridor A), the White Horse Pike (US 30) (Corridor B, the existing PATCO Lindenwold Line), and NJ 47 (the Delsea Drive to Cape May) / 55 (to Vineland) (Corridor C, which would serve Woodbury, the Gloucester County seat).

The reason nobody's talking about PATCO extensions is the same reason no one's talking about building the Roosevelt Boulevard subway on the other side of the Delaware: Full-blown heavy rail rapid transit costs more to build than any other mode of surface transport, including freeways. The carrying capacity of a two-track rapid transit line is higher than that of a six-lane freeway at standard vehicle occupancies, but our (sub)urban environments are by and large not built to support rail transit on the New Jersey side.

PATCO Corridor B got built first because there was that string of walkable communities that either were or could be "railroad suburbs" located along its route: Collingswood, Haddon Township, Haddonfield. Contrast those communities with Cherry Hill, Camden County's most populous township (and maybe municipality, depending on how many people are left in Camden), or Medford, or even Lindenwold, where Corridor B ends. Moorestown cries out for a train station, but between it and Camden are few other communities that are rail-ready or rail-friendly - you'd have to rip up the zoning ordinances and probably level a neighborhood or two to make way for "transit-oriented development" in Cherry Hill or Pennsauken.

Corridor C has more of these communities along it than Corridor A does: Woodbury, Pitman, Glassboro itself. So there is some logic behind the fitful progress towards building a light rail line connecting them.

One other South Jersey community that would clean up with rail service but will never get it is Merchantville.
It seems like improving the Atlantic City Line and River Line makes more economic sense for South Jersey then rather than for PATCO.

Regardless, a PATCO extension within Philadelphia, along with better fare integration and transfers with SEPTA, still seems reasonable even if it was the PA side that contributed the funding for that. If it's not more out of New Jersey's coffers and allows access to more stops within Philadelphia, then I don't see why this would be a losing proposition for South Jersey.

Merchantville looks like it has the Atlantic City line running within its borders, but no station. With that, then perhaps an infill station in Merchantville and greater frequency for the Atlantic City line makes sense. I get that there might not be so much potential ridership in parts of the line to make additional runs for the entire line worthwhile, but is there a reasonable place for the line to short turn or possibly even branch off? On Google Maps, I see this rail branch here which is basically the Corridor A you've referenced. That does seem much more sensible for an Atlantic City Line branch for commuter rail than rapid transit. Where the track merges seems to be parking lots--perhaps that's where to put in a stop that transfers between the branches and have the 404 bus line stop there as well would make the most sense.

The Atlantic City line is interesting, because it uses the bottom platforms of 30th Street Station--I'm wondering if those tracks can connect to the Airport Line at all or the little used viaduct that goes down S 25th street in South Philadelphia. I think ideally there'd be an additional stop at North Philadelphia station and that the North Broad Street Regional Rail stop platforms were moved up diagonally one block (after all, the station features two side platforms rather than island platforms) to make a large connecting station in Glenwood where those two stops plus the North Philadelphia Broad Street Line station make easy transfers. And if possible, the Atlantic City Line goes past the 30th Street Station to the Airport Line or down the S 25th Street viaduct.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 06-23-2018 at 10:08 AM..
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Old 06-23-2018, 10:12 AM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
21,144 posts, read 26,357,592 times
Reputation: 8568
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
Ah, yes, PATCO Corridors A, B and C, as first proposed in a report Parsons Brinckerhoff prepared in 1955, shortly after the Delaware River Joint Commission (nee Delaware River Bridge Joint Commission in 1917) had morphed into the Delaware River Port Authority in 1952, once the decision was made to build a second Delaware River Bridge.

(Of course, the great irony here is that the Delaware River Port Authority has never had authority over any actual port facilities, in contrast to its more powerful counterpart at the other end of New Jersey. An attempt to have it actually run the (maritime) ports of Philadelphia and Camden in the 1990s was stillborn after neither side of the Delaware proved willing to actually turn over its port terminals to the DRPA's umbrella organization.)

I think the letters were assigned from north to south, and it was Corridor B that was identified as having the highest ridership potential and built first.

They've been haggling over what form Corridor C would take for a couple of decades now, and at least that question's been settled: it will be light rail along the lines of the River Line, which wasn't on anybody's wish list of transit improvements for South Jersey but rather a pure political sop in exchange for South Jersey members of the legislature voting for the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail line up north. But God only knows when - or whether - actual construction will begin on the Glassboro-Camden Line.


Seems to me that Corridor A (Moorestown) is pretty much dead.

Anyone notice that major infrastructure projects take a while to become reality around here, if they ever do?
Whoever thought that the River Line was a good idea found out differently when it opened. It was kept hushed as long as possible. Many of the towns didn't want it. People elsewhere had the same simultaneous reaction - "Who wants to take a train from Camden to Trenton? Where's the train to Moorestown or Glassboro?".
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Old 06-23-2018, 10:17 AM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
21,144 posts, read 26,357,592 times
Reputation: 8568
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
See her post and my reply to it, immediately above yours.

The three corridors parallel three of the principal highways that fan out from Camden into the suburbs: NJ Route 38 to Moorestown and Mount Holly (Corridor A), the White Horse Pike (US 30) (Corridor B, the existing PATCO Lindenwold Line), and NJ 47 (the Delsea Drive to Cape May) / 55 (to Vineland) (Corridor C, which would serve Woodbury, the Gloucester County seat).

The reason nobody's talking about PATCO extensions is the same reason no one's talking about building the Roosevelt Boulevard subway on the other side of the Delaware: Full-blown heavy rail rapid transit costs more to build than any other mode of surface transport, including freeways. The carrying capacity of a two-track rapid transit line is higher than that of a six-lane freeway at standard vehicle occupancies, but our (sub)urban environments are by and large not built to support rail transit on the New Jersey side.

PATCO Corridor B got built first because there was that string of walkable communities that either were or could be "railroad suburbs" located along its route: Collingswood, Haddon Township, Haddonfield. Contrast those communities with Cherry Hill, Camden County's most populous township (and maybe municipality, depending on how many people are left in Camden), or Medford, or even Lindenwold, where Corridor B ends. Moorestown cries out for a train station, but between it and Camden are few other communities that are rail-ready or rail-friendly - you'd have to rip up the zoning ordinances and probably level a neighborhood or two to make way for "transit-oriented development" in Cherry Hill or Pennsauken.

Corridor C has more of these communities along it than Corridor A does: Woodbury, Pitman, Glassboro itself. So there is some logic behind the fitful progress towards building a light rail line connecting them.

One other South Jersey community that would clean up with rail service but will never get it is Merchantville.
I think corridor A goes through Maple Shade, which would benefit from it.
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Old 06-23-2018, 10:39 AM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
21,144 posts, read 26,357,592 times
Reputation: 8568
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
It seems like improving the Atlantic City Line and River Line makes more economic sense for South Jersey then rather than for PATCO.

Regardless, a PATCO extension within Philadelphia, along with better fare integration and transfers with SEPTA, still seems reasonable even if it was the PA side that contributed the funding for that. If it's not more out of New Jersey's coffers and allows access to more stops within Philadelphia, then I don't see why this would be a losing proposition for South Jersey.

Merchantville looks like it has the Atlantic City line running within its borders, but no station. With that, then perhaps an infill station in Merchantville and greater frequency for the Atlantic City line makes sense. I get that there might not be so much potential ridership in parts of the line to make additional runs for the entire line worthwhile, but is there a reasonable place for the line to short turn or possibly even branch off? On Google Maps, I see this rail branch here which is basically the Corridor A you've referenced. That does seem much more sensible for an Atlantic City Line branch for commuter rail than rapid transit. Where the track merges seems to be parking lots--perhaps that's where to put in a stop that transfers between the branches and have the 404 bus line stop there as well would make the most sense.

The Atlantic City line is interesting, because it uses the bottom platforms of 30th Street Station--I'm wondering if those tracks can connect to the Airport Line at all or the little used viaduct that goes down S 25th street in South Philadelphia. I think ideally there'd be an additional stop at North Philadelphia station and that the North Broad Street Regional Rail stop platforms were moved up diagonally one block (after all, the station features two side platforms rather than island platforms) to make a large connecting station in Glenwood where those two stops plus the North Philadelphia Broad Street Line station make easy transfers. And if possible, the Atlantic City Line goes past the 30th Street Station to the Airport Line or down the S 25th Street viaduct.
I get the impression that you don't know much about South Jersey or the history of the whole thing. Instead of the expected fanfare when the River Line opened, almost everyone was livid, including residents of the towns on the line. A number of the politicians involved were voted out.

Have you been around long enough to be aware of the scandal caused by the DRPA for giving away money to friends on both sides of the river, then raising bridge tolls to recoup the money which is intended for bridge maintenance & the subsidies for the PATCO line.

You seem oblivious to the lines coming under different agencies.
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Old 06-23-2018, 10:42 AM
 
Location: In the heights
20,919 posts, read 22,503,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
Whoever thought that the River Line was a good idea found out differently when it opened. It was kept hushed as long as possible. Many of the towns didn't want it. People elsewhere had the same simultaneous reaction - "Who wants to take a train from Camden to Trenton? Where's the train to Moorestown or Glassboro?".
I think other trains routes are a good idea, but the River Line actually passed its ridership expectations, no?

There is existing track going to Glassboro. What do you reckon should be run on it?
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Old 06-23-2018, 10:57 AM
 
Location: In the heights
20,919 posts, read 22,503,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
I get the impression that you don't know much about South Jersey or the history of the whole thing. Instead of the expected fanfare when the River Line opened, almost everyone was livid, including residents of the towns on the line. A number of the politicians involved were voted out.

Have you been around long enough to be aware of the scandal caused by the DRPA for giving away money to friends on both sides of the river, then raising bridge tolls to recoup the money which is intended for bridge maintenance & the subsidies for the PATCO line.

You seem oblivious to the lines coming under different agencies.
No, I'm not very familiar with South Jersey which is why I keep asking for input.

I'm not saying there was fanfare either nor am I saying it was a good idea or the best use of funds. Also, I think corruption in terms of giving away money to friends through public works is almost certainly never a good thing no matter if you're in South Jersey or otherwise.

I'm asking about given the infrastructure in place now and what physical concrete lines there are, what are the most reasonable projects to engage in. I'm partially leaving aside the organizational problems, which while important and need to be tackled (and possibly smothered under a pillow), are a related, but different can of worms. Pretty much all the different agencies and their stakeholders in this region will need to cooperate if they want to make the best use of transit dollars here and leverage what infrastructure there is to its best use. I'm not saying that's going to magically happen, but I am asking what are the reasonable projects to move towards since that's actually interesting to me and MAYBE they would highlight why actual regional cooperation is better.
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