Most reasonable eastward extension of subway-surface trolley lines and westward extension of PATCO Speedline (Philadelphia: city hall, how much)

[OyCrumbler]

Terminals in the city center (in this case, Center City) are pretty much the most inefficient thing possible for mass transit rail lines which is probably part of the impetus for Regional Rail's Center City Commuter Tunnel.

Right now, there are two rail transit systems which stop and turn back in Center City: the PATCO Speedline and the subway-surface trolleys. There's also the New Jersey Transit Atlantic City branch trains which terminate just outside of Center City at 30th Street Station and the Broad-Ridge Spur.

For these, what are the most reasonable routes for these to be extended? Are there existing right-of-ways or areas that are good for redevelopment or currently underserved that they can extend into? Are there any that seem reasonable enough to prioritize spending on or at least have a shovel-ready plan in case funding does ever open up?

[nimshady123]

I think the trolleys serve their purpose since they bring people into the city from west philly and have free transfers to both the El and Broad Street Line. Patco on the other hand should be extended to at least University City if not further. While we are at it lets extend the broad ridge spur down passyunk to give it some real ridership.

[Sammy215267]

PATCO would be the only viable extension. It's been brought up numerous times of the line going to 30th St. I would actually like the idea. I think alot of reason for PATCO not even entertaining it would be the price tag. To dig up the city streets and everything that goes with it. They will have a better chance at possibly extended it into Glassboro like they have studied to do.

*NJT cannot have another terminal stop. Once they are in the terminating state they cannot have another stop or something to that nature if i am not mistaken...anyone care to research that ?

*Trolleys serve their purpose...they already have a nice mileage on their lines.
*Broad-Ridge Spur---I doubt this line could be extended any further and i just do not see it.

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

Terminals in the city center (in this case, Center City) are pretty much the most inefficient thing possible for mass transit rail lines which is probably part of the impetus for Regional Rail's Center City Commuter Tunnel.

Right now, there are two rail transit systems which stop and turn back in Center City: the PATCO Speedline and the subway-surface trolleys. There's also the New Jersey Transit Atlantic City branch trains which terminate just outside of Center City at 30th Street Station and the Broad-Ridge Spur.

For these, what are the most reasonable routes for these to be extended? Are there existing right-of-ways or areas that are good for redevelopment or currently underserved that they can extend into? Are there any that seem reasonable enough to prioritize spending on or at least have a shovel-ready plan in case funding does ever open up?

Understand that PATCO stands for port authority transportation company. NJ doesn't feel a need to spend one cent more than they have to in South Jersey. They spent nothing at all until Red Arrow quit running busses to South Jersey. If you think that they like Philadelphia better, plan away.

[selhars]

I guess I don't understand or misunderstand the point of the OP.

Why would PATCO extend to 30th street? First of all it would need permission from PA jurisdictions. Second, people who ride PATCO who want to go further into Phila, can transfer to PA/Philly based transit systems. Maybe there should be more reciprocity regarding transfers and such -- but there's no need what-so-ever for PATCO to extend westward into Philly/PA.

If anything, area transit systems should consider extending farther out than they end right now. But I'm not even sure about that. People farther out drive in to the last stop on the line. And that's the way it works, and has worked. So I'm not even sure the lines need to extend any further.

Whether New Jerseyans (sp?) want and need PATCO to extend East/South or North that's for them to lobby for in Jersey.

[Muinteoir]

Originally Posted by Sammy215267

PATCO would be the only viable extension. It's been brought up numerous times of the line going to 30th St. I would actually like the idea. I think alot of reason for PATCO not even entertaining it would be the price tag. To dig up the city streets and everything that goes with it. They will have a better chance at possibly extended it into Glassboro like they have studied to do.

*NJT cannot have another terminal stop. Once they are in the terminating state they cannot have another stop or something to that nature if i am not mistaken...anyone care to research that ?

*Trolleys serve their purpose...they already have a nice mileage on their lines.
*Broad-Ridge Spur---I doubt this line could be extended any further and i just do not see it.

I agree Trolleys are fine in what they're doing.

Can you speak more to Broad-Ridge Spur? I think the poster above you has a point about it needing expansion for decent ridership. If it went down to the beginning of East Passyunk, I think it'd get a big increase in ridership. I don't know much about the line, but it looks like just a quicker connection to PATCO from North Philly?

[gwillyfromphilly]

Originally Posted by selhars

I guess I don't understand or misunderstand the point of the OP.

Why would PATCO extend to 30th street? First of all it would need permission from PA jurisdictions. Second, people who ride PATCO who want to go further into Phila, can transfer to PA/Philly based transit systems. Maybe there should be more reciprocity regarding transfers and such -- but there's no need what-so-ever for PATCO to extend westward into Philly/PA.

If anything, area transit systems should consider extending farther out than they end right now. But I'm not even sure about that. People farther out drive in to the last stop on the line. And that's the way it works, and has worked. So I'm not even sure the lines need to extend any further.

Whether New Jerseyans (sp?) want and need PATCO to extend East/South or North that's for them to lobby for in Jersey.

A PATCO extention to University would greatly benefit not only Jersey commuters but Philly residents as well. You don't think Philly residents would take advantage of having a 24-hr subway line from University city to Center City?

Don't forget that PATCO also plans on reopening Franklin Square station that will add another station to Center City in several years.

[BPP1999]

Originally Posted by selhars

area transit systems should consider extending farther out than they end right now. But I'm not even sure about that. People farther out drive in to the last stop on the line. And that's the way it works, and has worked. So I'm not even sure the lines need to extend any further.

The problem is that this doesn't really work. There are so many areas in our region that are underserved by public transportation. Huge swaths of NE Philadelphia come to mind, as do the Route 422 and Route 309 corridors in Montgomery County and the West Chester area. These three suburban locations had service at one time, and still have the rail infrastructure there. Other regions of this country have extended their systems while we in the Philadelphia region sit around and twiddle our thumbs and watch these other regions runs circles around us. Shame on SEPTA for not being interested in expansion, shame on our politicians who don't care, and shame on us for not paying attention.

[selhars]

You don't think Philly residents would take advantage of having a 24-hr subway line from University city to Center City?

Forgive my ignorance, the El doesn't run almost 24 hours. (and there are the trolley and bus lines)
There aren't plenty of existing ways for people to get from UC to CC already?

I just don't see why PATCO has to go to UC, if there are already other modes. Riders can transfer.

To me it's like the option that already exists for commuting to NYC. You can take AMTRAK, OR Septa AND NJT.
Not everyone's ride can be ONE system, ONE bus, ONE train.

These three suburban locations had service at one time, and still have the rail infrastructure there. Other regions of this country have extended their systems while we in the Philadelphia region sit around and twiddle our thumbs and watch these other regions runs circles around us. Shame on SEPTA for not being interested in expansion, shame on our politicians who don't care, and shame on us for not paying attention.

I don't have a problem with extending existing modes farther out.

I agree some outlying areas are "under served." I'd have to see the studies on how many people SAY they'd use public transit, vs those who actually would use it. Then again, extend service, and the riders will come?

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by BPP1999

The problem is that this doesn't really work. There are so many areas in our region that are underserved by public transportation. Huge swaths of NE Philadelphia come to mind, as do the Route 422 and Route 309 corridors in Montgomery County and the West Chester area. These three suburban locations had service at one time, and still have the rail infrastructure there. Other regions of this country have extended their systems while we in the Philadelphia region sit around and twiddle our thumbs and watch these other regions runs circles around us. Shame on SEPTA for not being interested in expansion, shame on our politicians who don't care, and shame on us for not paying attention.

It's probably more the politicians and how Harrisburg, for one, hates SE PA more than it's SEPTA's fault.

The only expansion I know of right now is extending the NHSL to KoP which has had a ton of nimby. As much as adding suburban transit makes sense, there will be nimby, guaranteed , for any new project even if SEPTA makes common sense proposals.

To be fair are you considering how much money has gone into changing the fare system?

Or the massive project of rebuilding MFL/BSL 15th St/City Hall subway complex which will at least add several more elevators?

There have been smallish capital projects like installing elevators at the Race/Vine BSl station and 40th St MFL station.