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I am not debating the average salary of the Septa workers, but the overall cost structure. I guarantee there are more workers than necessary, and the personnel costs are way above market, especially the pension obligations. The fact is the system needs to be heavily subsidized by the tax payer. It is part of the reason we have the highest gasoline tax in the nation at $.58/gallon.
You conveniently ignored my main point that I am satisfied, for the most part, with the convenience of the system, at least as my paltry needs are concerned. Daily riders may feel differently. In general, I think public transit is an asset to any community. I just wish they were managed more like a business, and less like a political appendage.
I didn't ignore it. Just didn't think I needed to comment about it.
Surely you know that, once upon a time, private companies ran the bulk of transit in the area. In fact one of the richest Americans in the early 20th century, George Widener, owned the city trolley network. He, along with his son, died on the
Titanic in 1912.
The suburban regional rails lines were owned by the Reading RR and the PRR. There was Red Arrow and Philadelphia and Western(today's NHSL) in the suburbs.
Of course the most spectacular bankruptcy of all of these was the demise of the PRR.
So the idea of running them more like a business? Historically speaking, it already happened.
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Originally Posted by kyb01
I didn't ignore it. Just didn't think I needed to comment about it.
Surely you know that, once upon a time, private companies ran the bulk of transit in the area. In fact one of the richest Americans in the early 20th century, George Widener, owned the city trolley network. He, along with his son, died on the
Titanic in 1912.
The suburban regional rails lines were owned by the Reading RR and the PRR. There was Red Arrow and Philadelphia and Western(today's NHSL) in the suburbs.
Of course the most spectacular bankruptcy of all of these was the demise of the PRR.
So the idea of running them more like a business? Historically speaking, it already happened.
Red Arrow also provided the only public transportation in South Jersey.
Red Arrow also provided the only public transportation in South Jersey.
in parts of it, for a while.
Camden did have a trolley system, and like public transport in most of the rest of the state, it was run by Public Service Co-ordinated Transport, the transit arm of the statewide utliity, Public Service Electric & Gas (now Public Service Enterprise Group). According to the Wikipedia article on the company (under its last name as a private operator, Transport of New Jersey), it was formed in 1928 by merging PSE&G's bus operator, Public Service Transportation, with the streetcar division, Public Service Railway.
The Ben Franklin Bridge was built with provisions for the Camden streetcars to operate across the bridge to an underground terminal at its western landing; two trolley stations are contained in the bridge anchorages. (The streetcar tracks occupied what are now the two outer motor vehicle lanes.) The trolleys never ran across the bridge, and the system shut down in 1932. The Wikipedia list of Public Service Railway routes identifies one that was operating in 1935, however: Route 5 Haddon Heights, which operated from downtown Camden to Clementon Lake Amusement Park. The listing says that in that year, it was a one-trolley shuttle at the Clementon end. Its route was later incorporated into Bus Routes 50 and 53.
I do recall seeing PSCT bus stop markers along Rancocas Road heading out of Mount Holly on my visit in 1971.
You live in Gloucester County, right?
It looks to me as what might have been the case is that PSCT's Southern Division operated in Camden and Burlington counties only.
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Originally Posted by MarketStEl
in parts of it, for a while.
Camden did have a trolley system, and like public transport in most of the rest of the state, it was run by Public Service Co-ordinated Transport, the transit arm of the statewide utliity, Public Service Electric & Gas (now Public Service Enterprise Group). According to the Wikipedia article on the company (under its last name as a private operator, Transport of New Jersey), it was formed in 1928 by merging PSE&G's bus operator, Public Service Transportation, with the streetcar division, Public Service Railway.
The Ben Franklin Bridge was built with provisions for the Camden streetcars to operate across the bridge to an underground terminal at its western landing; two trolley stations are contained in the bridge anchorages. (The streetcar tracks occupied what are now the two outer motor vehicle lanes.) The trolleys never ran across the bridge, and the system shut down in 1932. The Wikipedia list of Public Service Railway routes identifies one that was operating in 1935, however: Route 5 Haddon Heights, which operated from downtown Camden to Clementon Lake Amusement Park. The listing says that in that year, it was a one-trolley shuttle at the Clementon end. Its route was later incorporated into Bus Routes 50 and 53.
I do recall seeing PSCT bus stop markers along Rancocas Road heading out of Mount Holly on my visit in 1971.
You live in Gloucester County, right?
It looks to me as what might have been the case is that PSCT's Southern Division operated in Camden and Burlington counties only.
My sister lives in Gloucester County.
I lived in Cherry Hill over 40 years. I took the Red Arrow bus to Philadelphia &, in fact, I took the Red Arrow bus to City Hall on my 1st day of college & took PATCO home. I've talked with people, over the years, who grew up in most of the towns in Camden County. Every single one of us took the Red Arrow busses.
When I took the Red Arrow bus, I walked to Ellisburg. I would get on the bus & it went west on Rt 70. It circled through a residential neighborhood in Camden north of Admiral Wilson Blvd before crossing the bridge.
I lived in Cherry Hill over 40 years. I took the Red Arrow bus to Philadelphia &, in fact, I took the Red Arrow bus to City Hall on my 1st day of college & took PATCO home. I've talked with people, over the years, who grew up in most of the towns in Camden County. Every single one of us took the Red Arrow busses.
When I took the Red Arrow bus, I walked to Ellisburg. I would get on the bus & it went west on Rt 70. It circled through a residential neighborhood in Camden north of Admiral Wilson Blvd before crossing the bridge.
I found something that I think may provide a clue to what I saw vs. what you experienced.
The map on page 37 of this 1925 profile of the Public Service Corporation of New Jersey shows the Public Service Railway system; the area in black on the map shows the part of the state where PSE&G provided utility service. (According to the map, at that time, its territory included 80 percent of the state's population and 90 percent of its manufactures.)
You might note that the Public Service street railway network in Camden included lines that stretched into its suburbs. One ran down Haddon Avenue to Collingswood, Haddon Township and Haddonfield; another went south into Gloucester City, Woodbury and Woodbury Heights; a third ran to Haddon Heights (that's the line that served Clementon Amusement Park); a fourth served Merchantville and (looking at the main map) Moorestown, probably running on a street that parallels NJ 38 (between Moorestown and Mt. Holly, beyond the system's reach, that would have been Rancocas Road).
Public Service Transportation Company was formed to operate bus service in areas where street railways would have proved uneconomic. I think it's quite conceivable that a route could have connected Moorestown with Mount Holly, and that route would have gone into Camden after streetcar service ended.
I really can't imagine Public Service Co-ordinated Transport simply withdrawing all service along the former Camden streetcar routes - all of which are New Jersey Transit bus routes operating to either Walter Rand Transportation Center in Camden or the 6th/Market/Broad/Vine loop in Philadelphia, or both, today - once it shut down the streetcar system. The mention of "Bus Routes 50 and 53" in that Wikipedia table also suggests this. It does appear that most of Cherry Hill (back then, Delaware) Township did not lie along a PSR/PSCT route, and it may have been that Philadelphia Suburban Transportation Company filed to operate service where Public Service provided none.
A second possiblity might be that PSCT did at some later point file to get out of the business of moving people around Camden County (PSCT did run "All Service Vehicles" - trolleybuses - on some Camden County routes after axing the streetcars; the last of those services died in 1948) and that PSTC then filed to take over the former PSCT routes. Mount Holly and Moorestown being in Burlington County, that might have also explained the continued presence of PSCT bus service out that way.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl
I found something that I think may provide a clue to what I saw vs. what you experienced.
The map on page 37 of this 1925 profile of the Public Service Corporation of New Jersey shows the Public Service Railway system; the area in black on the map shows the part of the state where PSE&G provided utility service. (According to the map, at that time, its territory included 80 percent of the state's population and 90 percent of its manufactures.)
You might note that the Public Service street railway network in Camden included lines that stretched into its suburbs. One ran down Haddon Avenue to Collingswood, Haddon Township and Haddonfield; another went south into Gloucester City, Woodbury and Woodbury Heights; a third ran to Haddon Heights (that's the line that served Clementon Amusement Park); a fourth served Merchantville and (looking at the main map) Moorestown, probably running on a street that parallels NJ 38 (between Moorestown and Mt. Holly, beyond the system's reach, that would have been Rancocas Road).
Public Service Transportation Company was formed to operate bus service in areas where street railways would have proved uneconomic. I think it's quite conceivable that a route could have connected Moorestown with Mount Holly, and that route would have gone into Camden after streetcar service ended.
I really can't imagine Public Service Co-ordinated Transport simply withdrawing all service along the former Camden streetcar routes - all of which are New Jersey Transit bus routes operating to either Walter Rand Transportation Center in Camden or the 6th/Market/Broad/Vine loop in Philadelphia, or both, today - once it shut down the streetcar system. The mention of "Bus Routes 50 and 53" in that Wikipedia table also suggests this. It does appear that most of Cherry Hill (back then, Delaware) Township did not lie along a PSR/PSCT route, and it may have been that Philadelphia Suburban Transportation Company filed to operate service where Public Service provided none.
A second possiblity might be that PSCT did at some later point file to get out of the business of moving people around Camden County (PSCT did run "All Service Vehicles" - trolleybuses - on some Camden County routes after axing the streetcars; the last of those services died in 1948) and that PSTC then filed to take over the former PSCT routes. Mount Holly and Moorestown being in Burlington County, that might have also explained the continued presence of PSCT bus service out that way.
I'm talking about the time period from the mid 60s until Red Arrow folded in the 70s. I'm talking about friends who grew up in Haddon Heights, Audubon, etc. The Red Arrow bus route that I took prior to PATCO, with some degree of overlapping for several years, picked up & discharged passengers in a North Camden neighborhood. The PATCO tracks in Haddonfield run next to the Atlantic City line tracks & had been abandoned prior to PATCO. People in South Jersey felt that they were just as much a part of the Philadelphia area as people in the Pennsylvania suburbs. In fact, people in Camden, Burlington, & Gloucester counties filed a complaint with the FCC for coverage equal to the Pennsylvania counties with the local TV news, & that is why the NJ bureaus were established.
I'm talking about the time period from the mid 60s until Red Arrow folded in the 70s. I'm talking about friends who grew up in Haddon Heights, Audubon, etc. The Red Arrow bus route that I took prior to PATCO, with some degree of overlapping for several years, picked up & discharged passengers in a North Camden neighborhood. The PATCO tracks in Haddonfield run next to the Atlantic City line tracks & had been abandoned prior to PATCO. People in South Jersey felt that they were just as much a part of the Philadelphia area as people in the Pennsylvania suburbs. In fact, people in Camden, Burlington, & Gloucester counties filed a complaint with the FCC for coverage equal to the Pennsylvania counties with the local TV news, & that is why the NJ bureaus were established.
My observation took place in 1971, on my very first visit to this region. PSCT would become TNJ two years later and get taken over by the State of New Jersey about a decade after that.
But once again, I was staying in Mt. Holly, Burlington County, which is why I posited the scenario with which I ended my last post.
Did any bus routes end their journeys at Broadway on the old Bridge Line or pass it so that riders bound for Philadelphia could continue their journeys? Were there any that, like several NJT bus routes today, crossed the bridge and looped through Center City? It would seem to me that both practices were in place on some routes in the 1960s.
Last edited by MarketStEl; 08-03-2018 at 03:12 AM..
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl
My observation took place in 1971, on my very first visit to this region. PSCT would become TNJ two years later and get taken over by the State of New Jersey about a decade after that.
But once again, I was staying in Mt. Holly, Burlington County, which is why I posited the scenario with which I ended my last post.
Did any bus routes end their journeys at Broadway on the old Bridge Line or pass it so that riders bound for Philadelphia could continue their journeys? Were there any that, like several NJT bus routes today, crossed the bridge and looped through Center City? It would seem to me that both practices were in place on some routes in the 1960s.
The Red Arrow bus routes took the passengers to Market St, went west to City Hall, then looped back to the Ben Franklin Bridge.
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