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View Poll Results: Should Philly look to add a third subway line?
Yes, it would be a good long-term goal 17 54.84%
Yes, get on it right away 11 35.48%
No, it's not necessary 1 3.23%
No, it's not feasible 2 6.45%
Wouldn't really matter either way 0 0%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-07-2018, 04:08 PM
 
6,014 posts, read 6,515,432 times
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I was born and raised in Philly. And to this day don't even know where the PATCO stops are.

Out of ignorance, IF I needed to get from 16th and locust to 8th and Market (If I didn't just walk it), I'd take the Broad Street Line, go up to City Hall and transfer to the El. (Or hop a bus part of the way and walk the rest.)
Not that I'm proud of that ignorance. In my mind PATCO has just been for Jersey commuters, that's all.
Never even crossed my mind to look into taking it.
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Old 10-07-2018, 05:13 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
20,493 posts, read 25,691,530 times
Reputation: 8146
Quote:
Originally Posted by selhars View Post
I was born and raised in Philly. And to this day don't even know where the PATCO stops are.

Out of ignorance, IF I needed to get from 16th and locust to 8th and Market (If I didn't just walk it), I'd take the Broad Street Line, go up to City Hall and transfer to the El. (Or hop a bus part of the way and walk the rest.)
Not that I'm proud of that ignorance. In my mind PATCO has just been for Jersey commuters, that's all.
Never even crossed my mind to look into taking it.
I started riding PATCO in September of 1969. I used the 15th & 16th on Locust station, most of the time. It's pretty common, in inclement weather, to see people get on at 15th and 16th & get off at 8th & Market. I've seen people get on at 8th and Market & get off at 15th and 16th. I've also seen people get off & on at Jefferson & not cross the bridge. You've repeatedly said that you don't like to go to Center City. I would expect that you wouldn't know anything about it.

I've known people who live in Philadelphia who've taken it across the river to go to Haddonfield & to pick up a bus on the other side & go shopping, but they aren't the people who use it in the city & don't leave the city.
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Old 10-07-2018, 06:03 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
20,493 posts, read 25,691,530 times
Reputation: 8146
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
Some Philadelphians have a problem for seeing things smaller than what it really is. Just because the line isn't run by SEPTA doesn't mean that it not legit. Philly has had 3 subway lines since the 1950's when the Locust Street subway was completed. Of course the Locust Street subway is now part of the PATCO Speedline but it is still a heavy rail rapid transit line just like the Broad Street and Market-Frankford Line.

https://philadelphiaencyclopedia.org...levated-lines/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhPMU-4H9r8

Even SEPTA includes the PATCO on their transit map.



So the question you should really be asking is "Should Philly look to add a 4th subway line?
You're correct & it's one of the reasons that Rizzo pushed for the Gallery. It didn't take long for people in Philadelphia to figure out that they could take it to spend a day in Haddonfield or pick up a bus to a mall.
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Old 10-07-2018, 06:28 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,385 posts, read 9,945,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacksonPanther View Post
We don't include the Patco line because this is a Philly board. Patco ads no value to City residents. How many Philly residents are riding from 16th to 8th Street and back every day?
Whether or not you think the line adds value doesn't change the fact that the PATCO operates in Philly with 24-hour service downtown. Also PATCO plans on reopening a Philly station called Franklin Square in the future.
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Old 10-07-2018, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,385 posts, read 9,945,414 times
Reputation: 5230
Quote:
Originally Posted by selhars View Post
I was born and raised in Philly. And to this day don't even know where the PATCO stops are.

Out of ignorance, IF I needed to get from 16th and locust to 8th and Market (If I didn't just walk it), I'd take the Broad Street Line, go up to City Hall and transfer to the El. (Or hop a bus part of the way and walk the rest.)
Not that I'm proud of that ignorance. In my mind PATCO has just been for Jersey commuters, that's all.
Never even crossed my mind to look into taking it.
Okay, there are people who are born and raised in Bucks County and can't name a single Regional rail station. To each his own ignorance I guess.

Last edited by gwillyfromphilly; 10-07-2018 at 07:01 PM..
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Old 10-07-2018, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,385 posts, read 9,945,414 times
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Philly should look into a new subway line. Adding a line in Northeast Philly would be my highest priority but I think most of the residents in the Northeast especially the far Northeast would strongly oppose any type of heavy rail subway expansion. In some of their minds, they have seen what has happened to Frankford as a long term result of being connected to the Market-Frankford line and don't want all that "negative baggage" in their neighborhoods or else the far Northeast will become a "there goes the neighborhood" type of area that you will find in other sections of the city.

Southwest could definitely benefit from having a subway line. Just build the line over whatever trolley line that has the highest ridership.

Last edited by gwillyfromphilly; 10-07-2018 at 07:09 PM..
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Old 10-07-2018, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
125 posts, read 49,791 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyb01 View Post
If the funds don't exist to extend the BSL to the Navy Yard don't expect a 3rd subway.

I voted yes, as a long-term goal. I agree there are a few other priorities, given the city's limited budget: BSL should get to Navy Yard first. Street cleaning. Then, a third line.
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Old 10-08-2018, 02:10 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
3,653 posts, read 1,767,273 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maf763 View Post
The movement to bury the Broad Street line through North Philadelphia was to preserve the beauty of the neighborhood. Mary Channing Wister of Germantown, one of the founders of the Civic Club of Philadelphia (and wife and second cousin of author Owen Wister), led this effort.
And at least I am glad she succeeded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
Philly should look into a new subway line. Adding a line in Northeast Philly would be my highest priority but I think most of the residents in the Northeast especially the far Northeast would strongly oppose any type of heavy rail subway expansion. In some of their minds, they have seen what has happened to Frankford as a long term result of being connected to the Market-Frankford line and don't want all that "negative baggage" in their neighborhoods or else the far Northeast will become a "there goes the neighborhood" type of area that you will find in other sections of the city.

Southwest could definitely benefit from having a subway line. Just build the line over whatever trolley line that has the highest ridership.
The BSL Northeast Spur ("Boulevard subway") is the "third subway line" that has come closest to actual realization, but as of now, it's in the deep freeze.

It has come close to happening on two separate occasions. One was in the 1950s, when the city actually did have money to build it. That effort died for the very reason you stated.

That opposition had cooled by the 1970s, when the city applied for an Urban Mass Transit Administration grant to help fund the spur. Trouble was, the city had also applied for a grant to build the Center City Commuter Rail Connection ("Commuter Tunnel") connecting the Reading and Pennsylvania Railroad commuter rail systems at the same time. The story I heard (and reported on on the Commuter Tunnel's 25th anniversary in 2009) was that outgoing Secretary of Transportation William Coleman called his old friend Mayor Frank Rizzo on his last day in the position and told him that there were these two grant applications from the city on his desk and he could only approve one.

"Approve the tunnel," Rizzo said. "We can get to the subway in a later phase."

(The subway would have delivered the greater transportation bang for the buck, but the Commuter Tunnel had benefits for the suburbanites that the subway didn't, and Rizzo wanted to build a project of regional significance.)

A 1993 study showed that Northeast residents were ready for a subway under the Boulevard. I suspect they're still ready for one now (a DVRPC phone survey about 10 years ago found that they'd ride it if it were built), but they're not terribly likely to get one now.

The 1913 A. Merritt Taylor transit expansion proposal had the elevated running down Woodland Avenue to Darby. That route, in the middle of the three roughly parallel Southwest Philadelphia streetcar lines, still makes sense.
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Old 10-08-2018, 07:24 AM
 
116 posts, read 87,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
The BSL Northeast Spur ("Boulevard subway") is the "third subway line" that has come closest to actual realization, but as of now, it's in the deep freeze.
At one point it seemed so likely that Sears, at great expense, built their own shell station under their complex at Adams Ave. They probably didn't count on any of the dozen reasons the project never took off, but at one point they were clearly very confident in the prospect.

It's funny and tragic to think back at how hard neighbors fought the subway because of "undesirables" riding it into their neighborhoods, but a lot of the Northeast ended up declining perfectly well on its own, without any help from a subway.
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Old 10-08-2018, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia
1,241 posts, read 1,723,583 times
Reputation: 918
Quote:
Originally Posted by selhars View Post
I was born and raised in Philly. And to this day don't even know where the PATCO stops are.

Out of ignorance, IF I needed to get from 16th and locust to 8th and Market (If I didn't just walk it), I'd take the Broad Street Line, go up to City Hall and transfer to the El. (Or hop a bus part of the way and walk the rest.)
Not that I'm proud of that ignorance. In my mind PATCO has just been for Jersey commuters, that's all.
Never even crossed my mind to look into taking it.

PATCO fare is only 1.40 within the city of Philadelphia. It also runs 24.7. I've taken the line out to NJ a couple of times just for fun and to visit the towns. It's a real quality asset to the area.


It's also saves time if taking the Atlantic City Line, to make the transfer at Lindenwold, rathern than coming the whole slow way through N PHL on the NE Corridor (only to end at 30th Street Station, if you need to come to Center City).



Quote:
Originally Posted by kyb01 View Post
Where did see those plans? I'd love to see them.

Were they subways or Els?

Did George Widener help kill those plans(before 1912, of course) because of his trolley network?

This is the plan that Sandy speaks of: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?...view=1up;seq=1




Without actually reading all of that, and just going from memory....



My understanding is the city just was't able to fun the subway system. You know one of my criticisms of public transit in Philadelphia is that yes, while Philadelphia has a pretty extensive transit system that moves a ton of people, it is really too large of a city (both population wise and geographically) with too high of a transit ridership to have residents primarily served by a bus network.



The subway system as planned would have been amazing, and put Philadelphia in a similar position as NY and Chicago, where a great proportion of the citizenry has easy and quick access to frequent rail transit.



It's also the reason the Broad Street Line is built as a 4 track system, despite being the lesser used of the two subway lines. What exists of the broad street line is only the trunks line of what was supposed to be a feeder system, similar to how many of the NYC subway lines run.



The one feeder that does exist - the Broad Ridge Spur/Patco tunnel is part of a not-completed Center City Loop.


There is a flying junction build between Erie and Hunting Park which was built for the NE Extension, I believe. It now just leads to a storage yard.


There is space for a flying junction build somewhere in S Philly - I believe in the vicinity of Snyder Station? This would have been a SW Line.


There would have been a Germantown Line branching off somewhere between Hunting Park and Olney....


There would have been a Roxborough Line branching off around Fairmount - really a ridge avenue line. The Henry Avenue bridge was built to be able to transport subway cars.



I believe they also wanted some feeders into the MFL, at least one veering off north of Market Street. And of course The Frankford Elevated was originally an addition to the original line, which veered south after 2nd street, serving industry, ports, and ferries along Delaware avenue (and for all the misguided talk of a waterfront light rail today, the EL used to head that way, and if that still existed, would perhaps have guided denser development along the waterfront, and made for a more reasonable case for waterfront transit).
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