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View Poll Results: Should Philly look to add a third subway line?
Yes, it would be a good long-term goal 17 54.84%
Yes, get on it right away 11 35.48%
No, it's not necessary 1 3.23%
No, it's not feasible 2 6.45%
Wouldn't really matter either way 0 0%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-08-2018, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Pocopson
66 posts, read 15,615 times
Reputation: 103

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Has the city given-up on making I-95 into a tunnel? I'm assuming with this being approved, I-95 is staying as-is:
Plans for park over I-95 inch toward reality with fund-raising pledge

The reason I bring this up is because a subway running along Columbus Boulevard would not be helpful as long as I-95 is above ground. Even if the space between I-95 and the river does get developed, there is only so much area to go around.

Now if they dig a tunnel for I-95, you might as well dig a 2nd tunnel for a subway line... It really isn't practical to have one without the other.
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Old 10-08-2018, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
3,653 posts, read 1,767,273 times
Reputation: 2198
Some minor cleanup of FamousBlueRaincoat's pretty accurate off-the-top-of-the-head recollection:
  • The Ridge Spur is a distributor, not a feeder; it was the replacement for the loop subway, work on which began in 1915 along with the other authorized line (the Frankford Elevated Railway). When the suspended work on the Broad Street Subway resumed in 1925, the loop had been scuttled. This spur line replaced it in order to provide service to the shopping district centered on 8th and Market streets.
  • The original proposal called for the Broad Street trunk line to split in two at Pike Street, with one branch heading northeast up the Northeast (now Roosevelt) Boulevard to Rising Sun Avenue and the other heading north-northwest to Ogontz and Olney avenues via 15th Street and Belfield and Ogontz avenues. As revised, these two branches were to split off the four-track main line at Erie, where you will find ramp tracks to an upper level branching off the local tracks. This is where the connection to the Northeast spur and (approved for a later phase) Germantown branch would have been made.
  • Later revisions to this original proposal added a Germantown branch in place of the line up Ogontz (which was shifted to Broad Street as an extension of the four-track main), a further (2-track) northward extension of the Broad Street main line, a line branching off the South Broad (instead of Market Street) subway to serve Southwest Philly (that's what would have fed into the South Broad line between Snyder and Tasker-Morris stations), and a line beneath the Parkway, then over 29th Street to Ridge (later Henry) Avenue into East Falls and Roxborough.
  • An extension of the subway portion of the Market Street line was also added later as part of a deal with the Pennsy to relocate its main station to the opposite bank of the Schuylkill. Work on that began ~1930, was suspended a couple of years later, and resumed in the early 1950s, with the new subway extension opening in 1955. Again, this too was to have been extended further westward.

This article points out where you can see the various connections and provisions.
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Old 10-08-2018, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
3,653 posts, read 1,767,273 times
Reputation: 2198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patmcpsu View Post
Has the city given-up on making I-95 into a tunnel? I'm assuming with this being approved, I-95 is staying as-is:
Plans for park over I-95 inch toward reality with fund-raising pledge

The reason I bring this up is because a subway running along Columbus Boulevard would not be helpful as long as I-95 is above ground. Even if the space between I-95 and the river does get developed, there is only so much area to go around.

Now if they dig a tunnel for I-95, you might as well dig a 2nd tunnel for a subway line... It really isn't practical to have one without the other.
I-95 will remain right where it is now, partially sunken and rising to an elevated berm beneath the BFB. What that project will do is build a huge cap over both the freeway and Delaware Avenue, extending from Front Street to the water's edge.

Occasional proposals for light rail along Delaware Avenue have been floated. None have ever gotten past the talking stage.
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Old 10-08-2018, 02:45 PM
 
Location: The Best Philly, West Philly
888 posts, read 622,225 times
Reputation: 2202
If we can't get a fourth subway line (yes, PATCO does count), then we should at least make a few common-sense extensions. The Broad Street Line should be extended both southwards (the Navy Yard) and northwards (Cheltenham-Ogontz via Stenton and Ogontz Avenues). The Locust Street Tunnel should be extended under the Schuylkill and into West Philadelphia, which would enable PATCO to establish a new terminus at the Health Complex (preferably Convention Avenue and South Street for an easy connection to the Regional Rail). The El should be extended to Frankford and Rhawn, and a Boulevard Subway-Elevated should stretch all the way up to the city limit at Southampton Road.

If you can envision it, here are some new subway lines I'd like to see:

Andorra Line: Ridge and Northwestern to 84th and Lindbergh via Ridge Ave, 8th Street, South Street, Grays Ferry Ave, the 25th Street Viaduct, and Lindbergh Boulevard

Double Crosstown Line: Ivy Ridge to Front and Oregon via the ex-PRR Schuylkill Division ROW (current Cynwyd Line), 52nd Street, Grays Ferry Ave, Washington Ave, and the ROW beside 95 (basically following Front Street)

PATCO-Mount Holly: Health Complex to Mount Holly via an existing ROW


Ultimately, SEPTA should also look to its Regional Rail system to provide increased transit capacity to city residents. With its multiple major Center City stops, through-routed nature, fully-electrified system, and EMUs, the Regional Rail could easily act as the only regional rapid transit system in North America. Most of our lines are the perfect distance for rapid Regional Rail service, and the longer lines have multiple termini (ex. Bryn Mawr, Paoli, Malvern, and Thorndale on the Paoli/Thorndale Line). Some routes are entirely within city limits, while others spend very little time outside of Philadelphia County. The major impediment to achieving the goal of a regional rapid transit system would be Amtrak (especially on the Trenton and Wilmington/Newark Lines since they run along the NEC), but an increased number of slots is something that could be negotiated. If we were to increase investment in high-level platforms, change the seating arrangement on the Silverliner IVs (this won't be too big of an issue going forward since the Silverliner VIs are accounted for in the 12-year capital budget), and work out a modified operating agreement with Amtrak, the Regional Rail could substitute for our relative lack of subway lines.
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Old 10-09-2018, 02:42 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
3,653 posts, read 1,767,273 times
Reputation: 2198
PATCO to Mount Holly is an extension of a route that was originally proposed in the late 1950s study Parsons Brinckerhoff conducted for the Delaware River Port Authority assessing the viability of rapid transit in South Jersey.

That study identified three corridors where the Port Authority should consider building a rapid transit line. From the then-terminus of the Bridge Line subway in Camden, they were:

Corridor A: Camden to Moorestown
Corridor B: Camden to Kirkwood
Corridor C: Camden to Woodbury

All three could utilize existing railroad rights of way for all or part of their length.

The study concluded that the highest potential ridership lay along Corridor B and that the agency should pursue that route first. Which it did: Corridor B is the Lindenwold Line (Kirkwood being an unincorporated place within Lindenwold Borough).

The effort to build a line in Corridor C commenced not that long after the Lindenwold Line entered service in 1969. That, however, has since morphed into a light-rail line that would most likely continue the existing River Line from Trenton to Camden. Its terminus has been extended from Woodbury to Glassboro.

There's no active effort to build a line in Corridor A that I know of at present.
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Old 10-09-2018, 10:59 AM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
20,493 posts, read 25,691,530 times
Reputation: 8146
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
PATCO to Mount Holly is an extension of a route that was originally proposed in the late 1950s study Parsons Brinckerhoff conducted for the Delaware River Port Authority assessing the viability of rapid transit in South Jersey.

That study identified three corridors where the Port Authority should consider building a rapid transit line. From the then-terminus of the Bridge Line subway in Camden, they were:

Corridor A: Camden to Moorestown
Corridor B: Camden to Kirkwood
Corridor C: Camden to Woodbury

All three could utilize existing railroad rights of way for all or part of their length.

The study concluded that the highest potential ridership lay along Corridor B and that the agency should pursue that route first. Which it did: Corridor B is the Lindenwold Line (Kirkwood being an unincorporated place within Lindenwold Borough).

The effort to build a line in Corridor C commenced not that long after the Lindenwold Line entered service in 1969. That, however, has since morphed into a light-rail line that would most likely continue the existing River Line from Trenton to Camden. Its terminus has been extended from Woodbury to Glassboro.

There's no active effort to build a line in Corridor A that I know of at present.
The current PATCO line was heavily funded by federal funds so that it could be used as an example of what the feds were offering federal assistance for. San Francisco studied it and bought in. The same goes for Baltimore & DC. Trenton refused to help fund the A line & the C line. That money was then given to Atlanta. It was one of the many reasons for the South Jersey counties trying to separate & form a separate state in 1980.
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Old 10-09-2018, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
903 posts, read 427,846 times
Reputation: 973
This should most definitely be prioritized. (BSL Extension).


In addition to the City Branch BRT line.

A bus rapid transit route in its first iteration, that would commence at city hall in phase one, running underground in a legacy railroad tunnel with stops along the Parkway, and then extending north to Fairmount and into Brewerytown before crossing the river connecting the Philadelphia Zoo, West Fairmount Park, Parkside and ending at the Mann Center.

https://www.dvrpc.org/reports/14020.pdf

The key to understand is that SEPTA is a LEGACY transit system, there are only a handful in the nation, meaning the allocation of maintaining our infrastructure within our budget is much higher than some new systems operating.

With that Act 89 was probably some of the most profound legislation to come out of Harrisburg in the past decade.

1) Wholly bi - partisan. (Actually passed under Corbett and was dually sponsored by Republicans and Democrats).
2) Raised our Gas Taxes to the highest in the nation.
3) Pennsylvania now ranks 5 in transit funding in the USA. Impressive. And last time I looked nearly 40% of our statewide transportation budget is dedicated to transit.

With that, SEPTA is recognized as THE MOST fiscally responsible transit agency in North America. Head down to Washington, D.C and you will find they have a budget CRISIS.

SEPTA's wish list of projects is HIGH, and they have a large backlog of projects they have wanted to implement and slowly are checking them off the list. HELLO SEPTA KEY.

In about 5 years I think you will see some truly transformational projects emerge from SEPTA, but they are still getting through their list of projects that have been on the table for nearly 20 years.

As SEPTA says. 'We're getting there'.

They are a slow and steady agency. The Philly way.

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Old 10-09-2018, 07:44 PM
 
8,195 posts, read 4,395,735 times
Reputation: 2692
Quote:
Originally Posted by rowhomecity View Post
This should most definitely be prioritized. (BSL Extension).


In addition to the City Branch BRT line.

A bus rapid transit route in its first iteration, that would commence at city hall in phase one, running underground in a legacy railroad tunnel with stops along the Parkway, and then extending north to Fairmount and into Brewerytown before crossing the river connecting the Philadelphia Zoo, West Fairmount Park, Parkside and ending at the Mann Center.

If it's the same tunnel it's supposed to be part of the Rail Park extension.

Tangential. I read an article today about how fairly uncompliant the NY MTA is with the ADA. Septa has made great strides there.
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Old 10-09-2018, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
3,653 posts, read 1,767,273 times
Reputation: 2198
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyb01 View Post
If it's the same tunnel it's supposed to be part of the Rail Park extension.

Tangential. I read an article today about how fairly uncompliant the NY MTA is with the ADA. Septa has made great strides there.
Actually, unless I'm mistaken, SEPTA is bound not by the ADA but by a lawsuit that served as a precursor of that legislation, Eastern Paralyzed Veterans Association v. SEPTA. The requirements placed on the agency in that suit's verdict served as the template (or a template) for the provisions of the ADA.
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Old 10-10-2018, 08:55 AM
 
8,195 posts, read 4,395,735 times
Reputation: 2692
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
Actually, unless I'm mistaken, SEPTA is bound not by the ADA but by a lawsuit that served as a precursor of that legislation, Eastern Paralyzed Veterans Association v. SEPTA. The requirements placed on the agency in that suit's verdict served as the template (or a template) for the provisions of the ADA.
Well, no matter what drove septa to makes those changes, originally, they are WAY ahead of the MTA.
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