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View Poll Results: Should Philly look to add a third subway line?
Yes, it would be a good long-term goal 21 51.22%
Yes, get on it right away 14 34.15%
No, it's not necessary 3 7.32%
No, it's not feasible 3 7.32%
Wouldn't really matter either way 0 0%
Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-14-2018, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna. (birthplace)
11,503 posts, read 6,930,904 times
Reputation: 14629

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A complete and total boondoggle, cooked up by political hacks and grafters, and adapted to the fantasies of people who don't understand how urban transit evolved, and/or why.

Almost all heavy rail (subway and elevated) transit systems evolved in times before the automobile became the dominant method of personal transportation. And despite the propaganda coming from the "urban planning" crowd, the personal auto is not going away anytime soon. Nor is it likely to quickly morph into the fantasy of a "self-driving" critter peddled by the tea-time talk show crowd to non-technical types who confuse "George Jetson" science-fantasy with the limitations imposed by "hard science".

But those facts having been presented, there is still an important role to play for the existing transit infrastructure, by both Philadelphia's transit systems and suburban / commuter rail lines. They might be a strange mix, but they already offer access to most of the places that count; the problem here is that service from one suburb or "exurb" to another can't be had without a trip into, and out from center city, and building more heavy rail service in the form of an outer loop won't work either; the lighter population density in the suburbs can never justify the investment.

And almost everyone has forgotten that until the early 1980's, Philadelphia was also home to a well-suited network of "exurban' trains to Bethlehem, Reading, West Chester, and even Pottsville. These might be revived one day, and the success of new speeded-up commuter options. limited to those routes upon which Amtrak operations mandated improved (and very expensive) technology, proved their feasibility But it cannot be emphasized enough that this would have to be very much a long-term objective and with very heavy investment; most of the pipe dreams peddled by local politicians with a short-term focus and short-term promises usually involve payoffs (for studies and the like), to somebody's "connected" cronies.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 10-14-2018 at 10:23 AM..
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Old 10-14-2018, 01:35 PM
 
Location: In the heights
20,573 posts, read 22,120,310 times
Reputation: 10560
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
I asked the other poster with the big plans.

I specified the constraints. I don't think that the constraints registered. On the other hand, PATCO riders transfer to the Market Frankford El, the Broad Street Subway, etc. What is to stop SEPTA from building another line in proximity to PATCO.

I don't think that the poster has 1st hand knowledge of what he or she was saying.

PATCO is the Port Authority & is connected to the bridges, which subsidize PATCO. The River Line is NJT. What comes next? The bridges?
First hand in terms of having rode on PATCO? Yes, I have due to having been posted to the area for work for stints and having friends living in Philadelphia and South Jersey.

There’s nothing to stop SEPTA from building a line in proximity to PATCO, but there’s also not much of a pay-off for the price it’d cost.

There are two things here: one is the current agency structure and funding system. Organizational restructuring and/or faresharing agreements are not technically or legally impossible and there have certainly been cases of such in the US and the rest of the world. This and where a PATCO extension within Philadelphia past its current terminal in Center City are more about the how of things. It is certainly not going to be easy given how much attention Trenton pays to South Jersey and how government agencies love carving out their little fiefdoms, but it’s not true that it can’t be done through fare-sharing agreements or otherwise especially as new payment media makes it relatively interchangeable and easier to track usage patterns.

Now when it comes to the why of things, the rationale for this is that Center City is the greater region’s collective downtown and there is a rapid transit line already dug through and operational through much of it which then does a stop and heads back the other way. This isn’t a great setup compared to through-running as digging through downtown is already part of the most expensive capital costs and SEPTA throwing money down to make another full expanse of tunnelling when there exists tunnels that can be utilized. For Philadelphia residents, integrating and expanding PATCO within the city means a potentially much lower cost capital construction project that already stops in multiple parts of Center City and with transfer stations. For people in South Jersey, this should at the very least maintain the frequency and service as of now but additionally offers South Jersey residents additional stops to get off at without transfer, and if using the route I mentioned, including the area closer to Fitler Square, a relativelyshort walk across the river to 30th street station, a much more direct transfer to the subway-surface trolleys for those headed to various parts of University City, and a stop at the major museums and the lower reaches of Fairmount Park whether for events, recreation or jobs. It also goes both ways in that areas around the PATCO stations in South Jersey that aren’t just park and rides and have some jobs and development can have an easier time of attracting workers who want to live in Philadelphia. Finally, if the extensions into Philadelphia end up branching or an extension means reworking the how the terminal is arranged, then that could mean having a much easier time of adding capacity enough for PATCO branch lines in South Jersey in the future.

Now how pie in the sky is this? Well, I don’t reckon it’s much more so than any other in a topic about building a third subway line in Philadelphia.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 10-14-2018 at 01:50 PM..
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Old 10-14-2018, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
3,861 posts, read 1,865,349 times
Reputation: 2364
One item I need to toss in here:

If there were to be an extension of the Locust Street subway, it will be built by the City of Philadelphia, not either of the agencies.

All of the rapid transit facilities built in the city since the creation of the Department of City Transit in 1913 have been built by the City of Philadelphia. The 1951 charter transformed ownership of these city assets to the Department of Public Property.

There was some sort of swap that straightened out ownership of the privately built (and SEPTA-owned therefore) Market Street subway tunnel east of 22d and the West Philadelphia elevated vs. the city-built and -owned Frankford Elevated Railway and Market Street subway tunnel extension to 44th Street. Otherwise, SEPTA and the DRPA operate their services through city-owned subway tunnels. PATCO pays the city a nominal lease fee for use of the 8th and Locust Street subways; there's also a lease agreement between SEPTA and the city for the Broad Street Line, whose rolling stock the city also owns (that's why you see the city seal on Broad Street Line cars).

The issues involved in extending the subway, then, have nothing to do with the respective operating agencies; there would be no need to merge the two administratively. It would be advantageous for a true joint fare structure to be developed that would allow for bus-to-subway transfers on the Philadelphia side, however.
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Old 10-14-2018, 05:11 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
20,788 posts, read 26,008,916 times
Reputation: 8317
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
One item I need to toss in here:

If there were to be an extension of the Locust Street subway, it will be built by the City of Philadelphia, not either of the agencies.

All of the rapid transit facilities built in the city since the creation of the Department of City Transit in 1913 have been built by the City of Philadelphia. The 1951 charter transformed ownership of these city assets to the Department of Public Property.

There was some sort of swap that straightened out ownership of the privately built (and SEPTA-owned therefore) Market Street subway tunnel east of 22d and the West Philadelphia elevated vs. the city-built and -owned Frankford Elevated Railway and Market Street subway tunnel extension to 44th Street. Otherwise, SEPTA and the DRPA operate their services through city-owned subway tunnels. PATCO pays the city a nominal lease fee for use of the 8th and Locust Street subways; there's also a lease agreement between SEPTA and the city for the Broad Street Line, whose rolling stock the city also owns (that's why you see the city seal on Broad Street Line cars).

The issues involved in extending the subway, then, have nothing to do with the respective operating agencies; there would be no need to merge the two administratively. It would be advantageous for a true joint fare structure to be developed that would allow for bus-to-subway transfers on the Philadelphia side, however.
PATCO always had vending machines to purchase transfers for SEPTA inside the gates, since 1969, because SEPTA had manned booths to pay tolls.
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Old 10-14-2018, 05:18 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
20,788 posts, read 26,008,916 times
Reputation: 8317
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
First hand in terms of having rode on PATCO? Yes, I have due to having been posted to the area for work for stints and having friends living in Philadelphia and South Jersey.

There’s nothing to stop SEPTA from building a line in proximity to PATCO, but there’s also not much of a pay-off for the price it’d cost.

There are two things here: one is the current agency structure and funding system. Organizational restructuring and/or faresharing agreements are not technically or legally impossible and there have certainly been cases of such in the US and the rest of the world. This and where a PATCO extension within Philadelphia past its current terminal in Center City are more about the how of things. It is certainly not going to be easy given how much attention Trenton pays to South Jersey and how government agencies love carving out their little fiefdoms, but it’s not true that it can’t be done through fare-sharing agreements or otherwise especially as new payment media makes it relatively interchangeable and easier to track usage patterns.

Now when it comes to the why of things, the rationale for this is that Center City is the greater region’s collective downtown and there is a rapid transit line already dug through and operational through much of it which then does a stop and heads back the other way. This isn’t a great setup compared to through-running as digging through downtown is already part of the most expensive capital costs and SEPTA throwing money down to make another full expanse of tunnelling when there exists tunnels that can be utilized. For Philadelphia residents, integrating and expanding PATCO within the city means a potentially much lower cost capital construction project that already stops in multiple parts of Center City and with transfer stations. For people in South Jersey, this should at the very least maintain the frequency and service as of now but additionally offers South Jersey residents additional stops to get off at without transfer, and if using the route I mentioned, including the area closer to Fitler Square, a relativelyshort walk across the river to 30th street station, a much more direct transfer to the subway-surface trolleys for those headed to various parts of University City, and a stop at the major museums and the lower reaches of Fairmount Park whether for events, recreation or jobs. It also goes both ways in that areas around the PATCO stations in South Jersey that aren’t just park and rides and have some jobs and development can have an easier time of attracting workers who want to live in Philadelphia. Finally, if the extensions into Philadelphia end up branching or an extension means reworking the how the terminal is arranged, then that could mean having a much easier time of adding capacity enough for PATCO branch lines in South Jersey in the future.

Now how pie in the sky is this? Well, I don’t reckon it’s much more so than any other in a topic about building a third subway line in Philadelphia.
If you think that Trenton pays attention to South Jersey for anything other than to transfer tax money to North Jersey, you are mistaken.

Trenton nixed the other 2 proposed lines in the 70s. Before PATCO, I rode Red Arrow buses to get into Philadelphia.

There were many good, valid reasons why the southern counties tried to separate & form a separate state in 1980. Since then, Trenton occasionally throws South Jersey residents a bone, to keep peace.

Crooks from both states skimmed money from the bridge toll money, to pay for PATCO subsidies & bridge maintenance, to hand out to friends. The public uproar, when this became public, resulted in specific laws dictating how those funds were to be handled.

If someone from South Jersey is headed for 30th St Station, they transfer at 8th & Market. There's no need for a 2nd, redundant, line to get there.

Last edited by southbound_295; 10-14-2018 at 05:39 PM..
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Old 10-14-2018, 05:19 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
3,861 posts, read 1,865,349 times
Reputation: 2364
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
PATCO always had vending machines to purchase transfers for SEPTA inside the gates, since 1969, because SEPTA had manned booths to pay tolls.
Yes, I'm aware of that, and there's some sort of new arrangement now that both systems use NFC RFID cards for fare payment and station access, isn't there?

Something similar would have to be implemented to allow fare interchangeability between SEPTA and PATCO on the new extended Locust Street stations.
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Old 10-14-2018, 05:39 PM
 
Location: SC
8,393 posts, read 5,142,567 times
Reputation: 12110
Funding is always the issue. But I have a question.

Before I moved away from home, it was habitual, common, and easy for all the suburban dwellers who rode into the city for jobs to avoid paying Philadelphia wage taxes. The same was true for Philadelphians who worked in the suburbs.

Has this ever been corrected?
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Old 10-14-2018, 05:47 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
20,788 posts, read 26,008,916 times
Reputation: 8317
Quote:
Originally Posted by blktoptrvl View Post
Funding is always the issue. But I have a question.

Before I moved away from home, it was habitual, common, and easy for all the suburban dwellers who rode into the city for jobs to avoid paying Philadelphia wage taxes. The same was true for Philadelphians who worked in the suburbs.

Has this ever been corrected?
I paid wage taxes on every penny of wages earned in Philadelphia.
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Old 10-14-2018, 06:01 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
20,788 posts, read 26,008,916 times
Reputation: 8317
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
Yes, I'm aware of that, and there's some sort of new arrangement now that both systems use NFC RFID cards for fare payment and station access, isn't there?

Something similar would have to be implemented to allow fare interchangeability between SEPTA and PATCO on the new extended Locust Street stations.
I haven't ridden PATCO since they changed the ticketing, but you're right. The same would apply if service was extended by SEPTA.
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:11 PM
 
8,406 posts, read 4,544,309 times
Reputation: 2796
Quote:
Originally Posted by blktoptrvl View Post
Funding is always the issue. But I have a question.

Before I moved away from home, it was habitual, common, and easy for all the suburban dwellers who rode into the city for jobs to avoid paying Philadelphia wage taxes. The same was true for Philadelphians who worked in the suburbs.

Has this ever been corrected?
I was a suburban commuter into the city for 20 years(mid 70s-mid 90s) and always paid the commuter wage tax rate.
So I doubt it's as common as you are implying.
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