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Old 11-18-2018, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia
918 posts, read 442,273 times
Reputation: 973

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I will clarify what I was referring to, to answer the OP question.

S. NJ is a great place. Collingswood and Haddonfield are lovely towns with great transit access to Center City. I think both are great and I have no haste towards them on any level.

I most definitely see more of a connectedness between Philadelphia and the Pennsylvania suburbs than Philadelphia and the S. NJ suburbs. Culturally the region all roots for the same team, and generally think as a region, but more times than not, someone from Cherry Hill will say they are from New Jersey if they are visiting a place, whereas say someone from Jenkintown or Conshohocken would say they are from Philadelphia, as a frame of reference to someone, or they will say, "just outside of Philadelphia". I rarely hear this from someone from New Jersey. They simply say. Jersey.

Just as another poster clarified how the Media does the exact same thing, when referring to well known individuals.

I experienced this in college, as another poster had commented.

The river that separates both states, definitely creates a bit of an isolated migration within the region. Rarely do people from Southeast PA go into NJ on a region-wide scale outside of commuting purposes or the shore in the warmer season. The majority of the regions assets and institutions are on the Pennsylvania side. I am not being biased, this is just a fact.

Much of the reason the Pennsylvania suburbs are more connected, is because historically they developed first, and all the high money wealth from Philadelphia migrated and established world class institutions there. And many of these institutions share in Philadelphia's story of American history and legacy.

This is why there is such a proliferation of Universities and art and culture institutions in the Pennsylvania suburbs. These suburbs are often identified/labeled as Philadelphia in terms of frame of reference. For example Visit Philly our tourist bureau refers to the Pennsylvania suburbs as the Philadelphia countryside.

Many of these historic institutions in the Pennsylvania suburbs, were developed from Philadelphia civic groups and organizations.

Because of the isolation, many people from S. NJ from my experience, are not aware of this, and truly think that a place like Moorestown (which is lovely, I enjoy its Main St.) is the epicenter of the region in terms of culture and wealth. But this is just not true.

Traveling along the PATCO and traveling along the Paoli line, you will noticeably sense the difference with each connectedness. Many of the institutions along the Paoli line, historically had connections with Philadelphia specifically dating all the way back to the 1800s.

This is not true of the PATCO line as it was not developed until 1969. The Paoli line is from the 1800s.

This is one small example.

I truly enjoy the New Jersey Shore and I promote it all the time.

I think the OP would be happy in Collingswood, but not knowing more of what they are looking for it is hard to comment more.


PATCO does also have competitive service intervals in the 18 min mark.
The Paoli line though is nearly as good, with peak commuting intervals of about 20 mins.

Center City to Collingswood on PATCO is about a 15 minute commute on the train. Which is excellent.
Center City to Wynnewood on SEPTA is about a 14 minute commute on the train. Which is also excellent.

Just for frame of reference on connectedness and how the culture fits in.

Thank you,

Last edited by rowhomecity; 11-18-2018 at 11:38 AM..
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Old 11-18-2018, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Mid-Atlantic
22,911 posts, read 21,982,024 times
Reputation: 27994
"Because of the isolation, many people from S. NJ from my experience, are not aware of this, and truly think that a place like Moorestown (which is lovely, I enjoy its Main St.) is the epicenter of the region in terms of culture and wealth. But this is just not true."

Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha! Rowhome, do you actually believe that? It's been a long time since people had to take a ferry over to the big city. And Moorestown? It's a nice enough town with some lovely buildings and an interesting history.

How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm
After they've seen Phill-y?
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Old 11-18-2018, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
918 posts, read 442,273 times
Reputation: 973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerania View Post
"Because of the isolation, many people from S. NJ from my experience, are not aware of this, and truly think that a place like Moorestown (which is lovely, I enjoy its Main St.) is the epicenter of the region in terms of culture and wealth. But this is just not true."

Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha! Rowhome, do you actually believe that? It's been a long time since people had to take a ferry over to the big city. And Moorestown? It's a nice enough town with some lovely buildings and an interesting history.

How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm
After they've seen Phill-y?
I am not sure why your critique requires so many. "HAHA".

My point is. Many people from S. NJ have never ventured into the Pennsylvania suburbs to know the unique history, assets, wealth and legacy. It truly competes with the suburbs of NYC and BOS as some of the best in the nation, in terms of history, wealth and asset institutions.

Gladwyne, PA for example is the 2nd wealthiest zip on the entire east coast.

All I am trying to say. Few from S. NJ go into Pennsylvania suburbs, and the same is said for the PA people. Other than shore points.

That was my only point. Again Philadelphia is more connected to Pennsylvania, I mean it is its home state and where the entire state was first founded so the historic ties to the Southeast Pennsylvania region are extremely strong.

Regionally we have a collective, and we do think regionally in terms of sports, amongst a few other things. But PA and NJ are most definitely competitive in many ways, which does create a division. Corporate incentives and economic development are a small example of how PA and NJ have a real metro-wide division.

But to get into the deep and gritty history of the city. It aligns with Pennsylvania. And Pennsylvania suburbs follow that story actually very closely. New Jersey not as much historically. South New Jersey, really did not start its growth until after the Ben Franklin bridge was built in the 1920s, and most of its built environment today and infrastructure is from the 1960s onward and is auto centric.

Most of the PA suburbs are not auto centric, but have a towne center feel and are quite unique in their layout, because of the historic nature of the rail system in SEPA that connects to Philadelphia that SNJ does not have.


Again, not sure why this is a "HAHA". moment. Just stating facts if you look at the history and present day connections.

One of my best friends is from Marlton, NJ. 100% a Philadelphia suburb. He went to college in Lancaster. (He LOVES IT THERE). But is New Jersey proud. Which is great. He also loves Pennsylvania.

But. My point is. He NEVER says he is from Philadelphia. It is always. Jersey. Whereas more often than not. You will find people in the Pennsylvania suburbs associate themselves with Philadelphia. I do not see that with New Jersey.

That is all.

My Moorestown reference, is based on. I know many people from that area. Its a great town. And few realize just how well to do. Southeast Pennsylvania is. Again. That river creates a real wall of separation socially. Jersey and Pennsylvania suburbs 100% have different vibes. IMO.

S. NJ is great. Collingswood and Haddonfield are cute towns as well as Moorestown. In terms of Philly culture though. I will say. New Jersey definitely will always identify. Jersey first. Philadelphia second. Which makes sense. In Pennsylvania. I notice. Philadelphia first. Pennsylvania second. So in terms of Philadelphia cutlure, I will say the NJ side is a bit less connected.

OP asked. Thats my final answer.

Last edited by rowhomecity; 11-18-2018 at 02:28 PM..
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Old 11-18-2018, 04:03 PM
 
Location: South Jersey
12,941 posts, read 6,534,451 times
Reputation: 4508
I agree that the Pennsylvania suburbs have a different vibe. But to me that's mostly due to differing topography. I can drive across the Commodore Barry and it starts looking different from New Jersey pretty immediately, when driving on 322. Culturally, there isn't much difference. I do actually spend more time in the Pennsylvania suburbs of Philadelphia than I do in Philadelphia itself. But in fairness, I may more the exception than the rule. State lines do kinda matter when it comes to describing where you're from. It's inconceivable for a South Jersey native to say "Philadelphia." Even the term "the Philadelphia area" is not particularly likely for a South Jersey native compared to "South Jersey" or "New Jersey" in general.
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Old 11-18-2018, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Mid-Atlantic
22,911 posts, read 21,982,024 times
Reputation: 27994
OK, that was pretty tacky of me, but I found that part of your response hilarious. Moorestown knocks their socks off? I don't think so. It's not Oxford.

Do you really think that the people down there have never been to NYC, Europe, or anywhere?

Most people don't know a great deal about the area in which they live. Philly is easy if you don't want to dig too deeply. Southern New Jersey is bit less glamorous.

My 11th grade history teacher lit a candle in the darkness for me. We studied local history for two semesters. Since then, I have always learned as much as possible about the area in which I live.

When I lived in Marlton, I learned how the town got its name, visited the historic homes and sites of long gone mills and the stagecoach stop, and the importance of Tuckerton Road. The Quaker Summer Meeting was in Tuckerton. There's still a Quaker Bridge down in the Pine Barrens.

I love that I grew up in PA. It's not on anyone's short list of states to hate. You can go just about anywhere and tell them that you're from there, and no one cares.
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Old 11-18-2018, 09:13 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
20,660 posts, read 25,882,385 times
Reputation: 8235
Quote:
Originally Posted by rowhomecity View Post
I am not sure why your critique requires so many. "HAHA".

My point is. Many people from S. NJ have never ventured into the Pennsylvania suburbs to know the unique history, assets, wealth and legacy. It truly competes with the suburbs of NYC and BOS as some of the best in the nation, in terms of history, wealth and asset institutions.

Gladwyne, PA for example is the 2nd wealthiest zip on the entire east coast.

All I am trying to say. Few from S. NJ go into Pennsylvania suburbs, and the same is said for the PA people. Other than shore points.

That was my only point. Again Philadelphia is more connected to Pennsylvania, I mean it is its home state and where the entire state was first founded so the historic ties to the Southeast Pennsylvania region are extremely strong.

Regionally we have a collective, and we do think regionally in terms of sports, amongst a few other things. But PA and NJ are most definitely competitive in many ways, which does create a division. Corporate incentives and economic development are a small example of how PA and NJ have a real metro-wide division.

But to get into the deep and gritty history of the city. It aligns with Pennsylvania. And Pennsylvania suburbs follow that story actually very closely. New Jersey not as much historically. South New Jersey, really did not start its growth until after the Ben Franklin bridge was built in the 1920s, and most of its built environment today and infrastructure is from the 1960s onward and is auto centric.

Most of the PA suburbs are not auto centric, but have a towne center feel and are quite unique in their layout, because of the historic nature of the rail system in SEPA that connects to Philadelphia that SNJ does not have.


Again, not sure why this is a "HAHA". moment. Just stating facts if you look at the history and present day connections.

One of my best friends is from Marlton, NJ. 100% a Philadelphia suburb. He went to college in Lancaster. (He LOVES IT THERE). But is New Jersey proud. Which is great. He also loves Pennsylvania.

But. My point is. He NEVER says he is from Philadelphia. It is always. Jersey. Whereas more often than not. You will find people in the Pennsylvania suburbs associate themselves with Philadelphia. I do not see that with New Jersey.

That is all.

My Moorestown reference, is based on. I know many people from that area. Its a great town. And few realize just how well to do. Southeast Pennsylvania is. Again. That river creates a real wall of separation socially. Jersey and Pennsylvania suburbs 100% have different vibes. IMO.

S. NJ is great. Collingswood and Haddonfield are cute towns as well as Moorestown. In terms of Philly culture though. I will say. New Jersey definitely will always identify. Jersey first. Philadelphia second. Which makes sense. In Pennsylvania. I notice. Philadelphia first. Pennsylvania second. So in terms of Philadelphia cutlure, I will say the NJ side is a bit less connected.

OP asked. Thats my final answer.
Do tell. . .you've surveyed everybody, so you can speak for them.

I've told people that I was from near Philadelphia if I was far from home. Locally, I just said Cherry Hill.

As for historically, I had ancestors in South Jersey, Philadelphia, and the Welsh Tract. Guess which was settled by Europeans last. It wasn't South Jersey.

One of my ancestors lived near what became Indian Mill & later moved to Haddonfield. He married both of his wives in Philadelphia & all of his kids were christened in Philadelphia.
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Old 11-18-2018, 09:56 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
918 posts, read 442,273 times
Reputation: 973
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
Do tell. . .you've surveyed everybody, so you can speak for them.

I've told people that I was from near Philadelphia if I was far from home. Locally, I just said Cherry Hill.

As for historically, I had ancestors in South Jersey, Philadelphia, and the Welsh Tract. Guess which was settled by Europeans last. It wasn't South Jersey.

One of my ancestors lived near what became Indian Mill & later moved to Haddonfield. He married both of his wives in Philadelphia & all of his kids were christened in Philadelphia.
If you are trying to tell me S NJ has a more profound history than SEPA I would love to learn more. Because that is just not true on any level whatsoever.

Haddonfield is cute, I enjoy it. And it surely can be celebrated as a SNJ historic town, and region wide surely has a place of recognition.

Again though, the Pennsylvania towns have an even deeper and richer history. And that is just fact.

Not ripping into Haddonfield. My ex was from there and I went often and enjoyed it.

Within SEPA Haddonfield most closely resembles Doylestown, PA or Newtown, PA in its character IMO.

Historically though Bucks County, PA has a much deeper history. Again, stating facts somehow makes me a bad person. But this is all just true information.

I do not dislike SNJ. The fact is SNJ just is not as historic as SEPA. And that is a fact. And why I say SNJ has a disconnection with Philadelphia, whereas Pennsylvania shares it. Again the trade and development of early Philadelphia happened exclusively within Pennsylvania.

Nothing wrong with that. And nothing wrong with SNJ. I get most frustrated because many from SNJ will not accept that SEPA is the more historic and wealthier region.

OP SNJ is a great place to live. I do not, not recommend it. The strongest connection to Philadelphia culture and spirit though, is most certainly on the Pennsylvania side. IMO.

Check out Wynnewood,PA . You will love it. Pennslyvania Field Stone architecture abounds everywhere. Hyper historic Lower Merion is quite a place. 14 minute commute to Center City via SEPTA Regional Rail.

Southbound I get your hometown Jersey pride and respect it. So I ask S NJ to respect Southeast Pennsylvania and its historic legacy. It honestly is quite profound and not to be rude, but there are no comparisons on the assets and culture. I adore the Jersey shore. But in terms of Philadelphia suburbs and wealth of assets, institutions, and architecture it is on the PA side. And that is just a fact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynnewood_Hall

This is one small example. All the historic estates of Philadelphia were in Pennsylvania. The most expensive listing in S. NJ of top 25 listings, is the least expensive of the top 25 listings within SEPA. Again. Fact.

SNJ is a great place to live to raise a family. It most certainly is a region wide place that aligns with Philadelphia, it also carries a Jersey status, and belief that is separate from Pennsylvania. Not a bad thing, and NJ isnt a bad place. Just letting the OP know.

Again. Not ripping into SNJ as you think I always do. Just stating simple facts. I am an ally. But a realist. I hope NC is warm. Because it is cold up here already.

Last edited by rowhomecity; 11-18-2018 at 10:25 PM..
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Old 11-18-2018, 10:21 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
20,660 posts, read 25,882,385 times
Reputation: 8235
Quote:
Originally Posted by rowhomecity View Post
If you are trying to tell me S NJ has a more profound history than SEPA I would love to learn more. Because that is just not true on any level whatsoever.

Haddonfield is cute, I enjoy it. And it surely can be celebrated as a SNJ historic town, and region wide surely has a place of recognition.

Again though, the Pennsylvania towns have an even deeper and richer history. And that is just fact.

Not ripping into Haddonfield. My ex was from there and I went often and enjoyed it.

Within SEPA Haddonfield most closely resembles Doylestown, PA in its character IMO.

Historically though Bucks County, PA has a much deeper history. Again, stating facts somehow makes me a bad person. But this is all just true information.

I do not dislike SNJ. The fact is SNJ just is not as historic as SEPA. And that is a fact. And why I say SNJ has a disconnection with Philadelphia, whereas Pennsylvania shares it. Again the trade and development of early Philadelphia happened exclusively within Pennsylvania.

Nothing wrong with that. And nothing wrong with SNJ. I get most frustrated because many from SNJ will not accept that SEPA is the more historic and wealthier region.

OP SNJ is a great place to live. I do not, not recommend it. The strongest connection to Philadelphia culture and spirit though, is most certainly on the Pennsylvania side. IMO.

Check out Wynnewood,PA . You will love it. Pennslyvania Field Stone architecture abounds everywhere. Hyper historic Lower Merion is quite a place. 14 minute commute to Center City.
Do you know anything about New Sweden? Before you embarrass yourself further look it up.

Did you know where I was speaking of when I said Welsh Tract? If not, look that up, too.

I didn't mention before, but my ancestor, who was married twice in Philadelphia & had all of his children christened in Philadelphia, died in 1782, on his property, across the road from Elizabeth Haddon's nephew's house. 1782 is way before the Ben Franklin bridge. Both houses still stand, though greatly modified. Nothing to see there, in your opinion.

Last edited by southbound_295; 11-18-2018 at 10:31 PM..
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Old 11-18-2018, 10:33 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
918 posts, read 442,273 times
Reputation: 973
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
Do you know anything about New Sweden? Before you embarrass yourself further look it up.

Did you know where I was speaking of when I said Welsh Tract? If not, look that up, too.

I didn't mention before, but my ancestor, who was married twice in Philadelphia & had all of his children christened in Philadelphia, died in 1782, on his property, across the road from Elizabeth Haddon's nephew's house. Both houses still stand, though greatly modified. Nothing to see there, in your opinion.
I will refer you to this excellent youtube series. Called the Philadelphia experiment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-31iitsBAh0&t=1519s

I get it. S NJ has an identity crisis in terms of its connection to Philadelphia. The city of Philadelphia and the colonies of America most certainly aligned with Pennsylvania. It was considered the strongest colony of the new world.

George Washington wanted Pennsylvania to be our Capital and it lost by only ONE VOTE to DC.

I appreciate your Jersey pride and think it is commendable. In terms of American history. Tell me where the documents were signed and what state one of the most historic cities in America is located along with its most historic suburbs?

Pennsylvania has always been the more profound state in terms of American history. To deny that fact is honestly biased on your terms and why sometimes the Jersey pride and ignorance really baffles me, because it is quite real.

Haddonfield is great. But Southbound the Main Line consists of 20 more well to do Haddonfield type towns in a row. With elite historic collleges, private schools and culture institutions all aligned.

Last time I checked. Haddonfield while quite adorable, does not even make the top 25 wealthiest in the region list.

22 are in PA
1 is in DE
1 is in MD
1 is in NJ. (Moorestown)

Again relating FACTS does not make me a hater of SNJ. As you like to paint the picture. I am simply stating facts.

Last edited by rowhomecity; 11-18-2018 at 10:42 PM..
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Old 11-18-2018, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
918 posts, read 442,273 times
Reputation: 973
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
Do you know anything about New Sweden? Before you embarrass yourself further look it up.

Did you know where I was speaking of when I said Welsh Tract? If not, look that up, too.

I didn't mention before, but my ancestor, who was married twice in Philadelphia & had all of his children christened in Philadelphia, died in 1782, on his property, across the road from Elizabeth Haddon's nephew's house. 1782 is way before the Ben Franklin bridge. Both houses still stand, though greatly modified. Nothing to see there, in your opinion.
Again I am not discounting Haddonfield and its history, but I think the SNJ pride is forgetting that Pennsylvania is literally the historic mega power here. To try to tell me that Haddonfield is more profound than Philadelphia history and all the suburban colonial towns that surround it is quite interesting on your behalf and I would love a narrative.

Hey. S NJ is GREAT. I dont dislike. In terms of history though. The dice goes to Pennsylvania. To deny that is pure ignorance Southbound.
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