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Old 11-18-2018, 10:53 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
20,702 posts, read 25,910,454 times
Reputation: 8250

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rowhomecity View Post
I will refer you to this excellent youtube series. Called the Philadelphia experiment.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-31iitsBAh0&t=1519s

I get it. S NJ has an identity crisis in terms of its connection to Philadelphia. I will most certainly align the city of Philadelphia and the colonies of America most certainly aligned with Pennsylvania.

George Washington wanted it to be our capital state. I appreciate your Jersey pride and think it is commendable. In terms of American history. Tell me where the documents where signed and what state one of the most historic cities in America is located alone with its most historic suburbs.

Haddonfield is great. But Southbound the Main Line makes is 20 Haddonfields in a row. With elite historic collleges, private schools and culture institutions all aligned.

Last time I checked. Haddonfield while quite nice. Is lacking all that. And does not even make the top 25 wealthiest in the region list.

22 are in PA
1 is in DE
1 is in MD
1 is in NJ. (Moorestown)
You do the same thing every chance you get. You are like a broken record. You said there is no history in South Jersey. The Swedes were there, in Delaware, and Philadelphia. William Penn & other Quakers were involved in South Jersey before the king gave William the land to pay his debt to Admiral Penn.

I'm betting that you don't have a clue who Elizabeth Haddon was & that you don't have a clue about the Welsh Tract.

I'll also bet that you know nothing about Washington initiating a roundup of cows for food while in Valley Forge. That roundup of cows was in South Jersey. That's where the best concentration of productive farms was. It was Philadelphia's breadbasket.

There is sufficient history in South Jersey to make your current trashing wrong, so now you switch, in midstream to wealth, while trying to talk down to me. Plus you didn't credit kyb for the video. You got that from her thread.
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Old 11-18-2018, 10:59 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
918 posts, read 444,771 times
Reputation: 973
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
You do the same thing every chance you get. You are like a broken record. You said there is no history in South Jersey. The Swedes were there, in Delaware, and Philadelphia. William Penn & other Quakers were involved in South Jersey before the king gave William the land to pay his debt to Admiral Penn.

I'm betting that you don't have a clue who Elizabeth Haddon was & that you don't have a clue about the Welsh Tract.

I'll also bet that you know nothing about Washington initiating a roundup of cows for food while in Valley Forge. That roundup of cows was in South Jersey. That's where the best concentration of productive farms was. It was Philadelphia's breadbasket.

There is sufficient history in South Jersey to make your current trashing wrong, so now you switch, in midstream to wealth, while trying to talk down to me. Plus you didn't credit kyb for the video. You got that from her thread.
I will roll my eyes at S. NJ egoism. Literally you are trying to say S. NJ is more historic than Southeast Pennsylvania where the entire nation was founded?

I want a list of record of historic accomplishments in S. NJ.

I will give you Southeast Pennsylvania's. It will be quite profound. lol
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Old 11-18-2018, 11:03 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
3,766 posts, read 1,826,828 times
Reputation: 2295
I think I've stated here before how bi-state or multi-state metropolitan areas tend to function attitudinally.

The state containing the core city usually contains the bulk of the metro area population (60 percent or more), and the suburbs in the other state tend to be (regarded, treated, referred to) as something apart from, and sometimes subordinate to, the core city and its suburbs. My hometown of Kansas City, where only 55 percent of residents live in Missouri, is the notable exception to this rule.

That's also often the case because there's a significant natural barrier to free flow between the two states, usually a river. In Chicago, it's sheer distance: you travel through a good portion of Chicago's suburbs before reaching Indiana or Wisconsin.

And because of that natural barrier, it's also the case in most of these instances that the area in the other state suburbanized later than the area in the same state did.

That's definitely the case in Southern New Jersey. There are indeed several towns that date to the 1700s, Moorestown, Mt. Holly, Burlington, Woodbury and Haddonfield among them, but much of the territory between these places and Camden developed no earlier than the late 1i9th century or later. By this time, most of the towns along the Main Line of (Public Works | the Pennsylvania Railroad) had been developed and heavily settled.

This also accounts for the North/South Jersey political dynamic. Northern New Jersey developed much like Philadelphia's western suburbs did, on the back of a web of rail lines that extended from Hoboken. That city got a subway connection to New York in 1909. Camden didn't get one to Philadelphia until 1936, after the bridge connecting the two cities opened, and there was no similar network of commuter rail lines extending into adjacent South Jersey communities from Camden. North Jersey urbanized earlier and to a much greater extent than South Jersey did.

Last edited by MarketStEl; 11-18-2018 at 11:18 PM..
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Old 11-18-2018, 11:11 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
20,702 posts, read 25,910,454 times
Reputation: 8250
Quote:
Originally Posted by rowhomecity View Post
I will roll my eyes at S. NJ egoism. Literally you are trying to say S. NJ is more historic than Southeast Pennsylvania where the entire nation was founded?

I want a list of record of historic accomplishments in S. NJ.

I will give you Southeast Pennsylvania's. It will be quite profound. lol

I've listed plenty of things to refute the claim you made. No history. That was your claim. Moving the goalpost doesn't make it right. Look up Fenwick colony. Look up New Sweden and look up the Welsh Tract.
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Old 11-18-2018, 11:11 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
918 posts, read 444,771 times
Reputation: 973
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
I think I've stated here before how bi-state or multi-state metropolitan areas tend to function attitudinally.

The state containing the core city usually contains the bulk of the metro area population (60 percent or more), and the suburbs in the other state tend to be (regarded, treated, referred to) as something apart from, and sometimes subordinate to, the core city and its suburbs. My hometown of Kansas City, where only 55 percent of residents live in Missouri, is the notable exception to this rule.

That's also often the case because there's a siginficant natural barrier to free flow between the two states, usually a river. In Chicago, it's sheer distance: you travel through a good portion of Chicago's suburbs before reaching Indiana or Wisconsin.

And because of that natural barrier, it's also the case in most of these instances that the area in the other state suburbanized later than the area in the eame state did.

That's definitely the case in Southern New Jersey. There are indeed several towns that date to the 1700s, Moorestown, Mt. Holly, Burlington, Woodbury and Haddonfield among them, but much of the territory between these places and Camden developed no earlier than the late 1i9th century or later. By this time, most of the towns along the Main Line of (Public Works | the Pennsylvania Railroad) had been developed and heavily settled.

This also accounts for the North/South Jersey political dynamic. Northern New Jersey developed much like Philadelphia's western suburbs did, on the back of a web of rail lines that extended from Hoboken. That city got a subway connection to New York in 1909. Camden didn't get one to Philadelphia until 1936, after the bridge connecting the two cities opened, and there was no similar network of commuter rail lines extending into adjacent South Jersey communities from Camden. North Jersey urbanized earlier and to a much greater extent than South Jersey did.
Great analysis and 100% factual and true.

I do not dislike SNJ, but I think the respect of historic achievements on the PA side is not seen or recognized from the NJ side.

Which to me is always quite surprising. I am rarely in NJ, and this OP should of posted this question in the NJ forum or this would not even be a discussion.

NJ is a fine place. PA has more achievements. To deny that is silly from other posters who literally are denying historic facts of American history.

Pennsylvania has always been known to be one of the profound states of American history. New Jersey is a suburban state.

Yes it has history. But it will always live in New York and Pennsylvania's shadows, and people from New Jersey, such as Southbound will always have a chip on their shoulder about that.

Most people from SNJ are reluctant to reveal where they live to us fellow Pennsylvanians. Very similar to NYC and its NJ relationship. I will allow you to judge the response for yourself, but most people sound down trodden in nice terms. And want to be from PA. NJ has a net migration pattern out of state. Camden County is actually loosing population on a whole. The only county in the region to do so.

Last edited by toobusytoday; 11-19-2018 at 07:39 AM.. Reason: Removing comments outing another posters location. Please stick to the topic
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Old 11-18-2018, 11:19 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
20,702 posts, read 25,910,454 times
Reputation: 8250
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
I think I've stated here before how bi-state or multi-state metropolitan areas tend to function attitudinally.

The state containing the core city usually contains the bulk of the metro area population (60 percent or more), and the suburbs in the other state tend to be (regarded, treated, referred to) as something apart from, and sometimes subordinate to, the core city and its suburbs. My hometown of Kansas City, where only 55 percent of residents live in Missouri, is the notable exception to this rule.

That's also often the case because there's a siginficant natural barrier to free flow between the two states, usually a river. In Chicago, it's sheer distance: you travel through a good portion of Chicago's suburbs before reaching Indiana or Wisconsin.

And because of that natural barrier, it's also the case in most of these instances that the area in the other state suburbanized later than the area in the eame state did.

That's definitely the case in Southern New Jersey. There are indeed several towns that date to the 1700s, Moorestown, Mt. Holly, Burlington, Woodbury and Haddonfield among them, but much of the territory between these places and Camden developed no earlier than the late 1i9th century or later. By this time, most of the towns along the Main Line of (Public Works | the Pennsylvania Railroad) had been developed and heavily settled.

This also accounts for the North/South Jersey political dynamic. Northern New Jersey developed much like Philadelphia's western suburbs did, on the back of a web of rail lines that extended from Hoboken. That city got a subway connection to New York in 1909. Camden didn't get one to Philadelphia until 1936, after the bridge connecting the two cities opened, and there was no similar network of commuter rail lines extending into adjacent South Jersey communities from Camden. North Jersey urbanized earlier and to a much greater extent than South Jersey did.
MarketStEl, would you like to explain to him where the Welsh Tract was? It seems pretty obvious to me that he thinks it was in South Jersey. I'm getting fed up, so would prefer to limit anything else that I say to him tonight. You have a way with words.
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Old 11-18-2018, 11:22 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
918 posts, read 444,771 times
Reputation: 973
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
MarketStEl, would you like to explain to him where the Welsh Tract was? It seems pretty obvious to me that he thinks it was in South Jersey. I'm getting fed up, so would prefer to limit anything else that I say to him tonight. You have a way with words.
I will roll my eyes with SNJ ego. And give you a quaker shake. And again. Remind you. Camden County, NJ is the only county in the entire metro. loosing population.

Have a great evening. To deny Pennsylvania history is quite insulting.
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Old 11-18-2018, 11:32 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
918 posts, read 444,771 times
Reputation: 973
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
MarketStEl, would you like to explain to him where the Welsh Tract was? It seems pretty obvious to me that he thinks it was in South Jersey. I'm getting fed up, so would prefer to limit anything else that I say to him tonight. You have a way with words.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haddonfield,_New_Jersey

Again I have no clue the last time you have been up in this region. I know you do not live here. But even Haddonfield is losing population. Quite significant notation.

As it is one of the anchor towns of SNJ and again I am telling you there is a property tax crisis in SNJ that no one wants to recognize. You do not live here, so naturally your awareness would be low.

But if your #1 town is losing population. I would be concerned SNJ.

I know my family friends from Haddonfield moved out of SNJ and into Southeast Pennsylvania. And will save 300k in property taxes over 10 years.
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Old 11-19-2018, 01:01 AM
 
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
7 posts, read 2,184 times
Reputation: 15
Thanks everyone - this is a most insightful thread. Very interesting answers to my original question. Culture and perception is an interesting thing, isn't it?
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Old 11-19-2018, 01:51 AM
 
Location: Mid-Atlantic
22,982 posts, read 22,024,632 times
Reputation: 28050
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
Do you know anything about New Sweden? Before you embarrass yourself further look it up.

Did you know where I was speaking of when I said Welsh Tract? If not, look that up, too.

I didn't mention before, but my ancestor, who was married twice in Philadelphia & had all of his children christened in Philadelphia, died in 1782, on his property, across the road from Elizabeth Haddon's nephew's house. 1782 is way before the Ben Franklin bridge. Both houses still stand, though greatly modified. Nothing to see there, in your opinion.
Shall we sing Men of Harlech and reminisce about the tea burning?

It seems Southern New Jersey has become Philadelphia's red-headed stepchild. At least to some. The Philadelphia Botanical Club likes it well enough. They go there every year.

OP, Philadelphian's don't have a problem with their neighbors to the south. They know that thousands cross the bridges daily to work there, and that they visit often. The suburbanites spend quite a bit there, too. My out-of-town relatives all got the grand Philly tour, but I also took them to Haddonfield, Batsto, and the Tuckerton Seaport & Baymen's Museum.

I'll never be able to figure out why people say that they're rude. No one there has ever been rude to me. Maybe I choose the right people to inflict my stupid questions on. I just ended a sentence with the word on.
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